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is this right?
93 Answers
http://news.bbc.co.uk...ld/europe/8480161.stm
Have to say I personally agree with this ruling. Happy for people to come up with a good argument against and happy to change my views as well if someone can think why this isnt a good thing!
Have to say I personally agree with this ruling. Happy for people to come up with a good argument against and happy to change my views as well if someone can think why this isnt a good thing!
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Rev, For many women I believe the wearing of the burka is obligatory - their men demand it. However, at one time the burka was conspicuous by its absence in some Muslim communities, but it isn't now, so I think these days many wear it by choice, with the encouragement of their men, because it's become something of a political statement. Personally I feel that faces should be uncovered in public places. What's the point of installing CCTV to aid security if a proportion of the population remains unrecognisable? Personal choice, or religion for that matter, cannot be deemed to be an issue where security is concerned. I believe a ban on the burka would not only provide a certain amount of liberation for women, but would also encourage greater integration, thereby promoting enhanced social cohesion. As for it resulting in further oppression for women, those who are obliged to wear it could hardly be more oppressed - unless of course you look at a post here a few days ago that suggested if the burka were banned, then the women who had previously been forced by their husbands and fathers to wear it would be kept under house arrest - which then leads us to the question of how do we get through to the men involved?
I would no sooner tell a woman to take a bag off her head than to tell her to put one on.
Imagine, ladies, you're walking down the street and a copper frog marches you into Next and tells you to wear something else cos that outfit makes your bum look big.
As for liberation, history teaches us that it was the banning of the veil in Iran that proved the catalyst for the fall of the shah, hundreds and thousands of women refused to set foot out the door because they felt improperly dressed.
I dislike the veil and the burkha intensely, but then I also hate muffin tops with hipsters, let em be.
Imagine, ladies, you're walking down the street and a copper frog marches you into Next and tells you to wear something else cos that outfit makes your bum look big.
As for liberation, history teaches us that it was the banning of the veil in Iran that proved the catalyst for the fall of the shah, hundreds and thousands of women refused to set foot out the door because they felt improperly dressed.
I dislike the veil and the burkha intensely, but then I also hate muffin tops with hipsters, let em be.
"I believe a ban on the burka would not only provide a certain amount of liberation for women, but would also encourage greater integration, thereby promoting enhanced social cohesion."
doubt it. if as you say their husbands demand it and force it upon them, its likely they will be banned from going out at all in public and therefre incacerated in their own prisons.
whilst you may believe this could lead to muslim female liberation, for many it could have the opposite effect if their men are as forceful aand have as much control over them as you say.
doubt it. if as you say their husbands demand it and force it upon them, its likely they will be banned from going out at all in public and therefre incacerated in their own prisons.
whilst you may believe this could lead to muslim female liberation, for many it could have the opposite effect if their men are as forceful aand have as much control over them as you say.
Ankou, which as I said leads us to the question of how do we get through to the men involved? If we use the excuse that even harsher forms of subjugation may be imposed upon women with the banning of the burka, then we are not addressing the basic problem, and therefore in effect we are condoning the oppression of women by allowing it to continue - and two wrongs don't make a right.
noami, your first answer was purely about identity in public places, not womens lib. so i had presumed this was the fear factor of hidden identity, or hidden wmd's.
my first answer was that a ban was not right, but a rule for facial exposure to a figure of authority should be considered so that women who want to wear the burkha can, and those that are forced to can still go out but at some point mught have to reveal their faces. changing the mindset takes time, and small steps can be a great leap for manwomankind.
outright ans will cause upset from all directions - just listen to the smokers whingeing about puffing in the cold - and its likley that a ban of this sort could have a negative impact in eastern/western relations.
my first answer was that a ban was not right, but a rule for facial exposure to a figure of authority should be considered so that women who want to wear the burkha can, and those that are forced to can still go out but at some point mught have to reveal their faces. changing the mindset takes time, and small steps can be a great leap for manwomankind.
outright ans will cause upset from all directions - just listen to the smokers whingeing about puffing in the cold - and its likley that a ban of this sort could have a negative impact in eastern/western relations.
Ankou, Yes, my first answer did concern security, but I subsequently answered a question put to me by Rev. Sermon.
Why should we set any one section of society apart by making special arrangements for people who insist on maintaining anonymity when everyone else is obliged to reveal their identity? Apart from the obvious inequality involved, that amounts to blatant discrimination, and as such, serves only to create further divide.
As for a ban causing a negative impact of east/west relations, what are you suggesting? That Britain, unlike France, is so afraid of the prospect of the potential outcome that we abandon our moral principles and compromise our security in an effort to appease this one section of society? That's nothing less than submission to coercion. The smokers don't like it, but they do it because that's the law.
Why should we set any one section of society apart by making special arrangements for people who insist on maintaining anonymity when everyone else is obliged to reveal their identity? Apart from the obvious inequality involved, that amounts to blatant discrimination, and as such, serves only to create further divide.
As for a ban causing a negative impact of east/west relations, what are you suggesting? That Britain, unlike France, is so afraid of the prospect of the potential outcome that we abandon our moral principles and compromise our security in an effort to appease this one section of society? That's nothing less than submission to coercion. The smokers don't like it, but they do it because that's the law.
I think Everton's answer pretty much echoed my view. If only one woman in the world chose and wanted to wear the burka what right has anyone to criminalise her for doing so.
I agree with all the arguments regarding security and have no problem with a law saying faces must be uncovered in "sensitive areas" i.e banks, passport control and so on but it should be applied only where there is a practical reason. There shouldn't be a plan in public spaces such as doctor's waiting rooms, public libraries, gymnasiums for example.
I don't like the idea of the burka, I agree some women are opressed by being forced to wear it but to quote Everton "I would no sooner tell a woman to take a bag off her head than to tell her to put one on. "
I agree with all the arguments regarding security and have no problem with a law saying faces must be uncovered in "sensitive areas" i.e banks, passport control and so on but it should be applied only where there is a practical reason. There shouldn't be a plan in public spaces such as doctor's waiting rooms, public libraries, gymnasiums for example.
I don't like the idea of the burka, I agree some women are opressed by being forced to wear it but to quote Everton "I would no sooner tell a woman to take a bag off her head than to tell her to put one on. "
I agree with Chakka in that it is incredibly rude to speak to someone behind a veil so thats one reason I'm for it the ruling. But the main reason is whether someone just now wants to wear it does it not represent a piece of muslim culture that is wrong? That Muslims are a male dominated religion and that we all see it as wrong? Shouldnt they want to integrate with us more rather than make a political statement against us by wearing it?
Rev, I disagree. The burka isn't a fashion statement and I believe a ban on it should apply in all public areas. The inhabitants of this country are now, apparently, amongst the most 'watched' in the world, but what's the point of having thousands of CCTV cameras in streets, shops, office buildings, libraries, gyms, hospitals, doctors' surgeries, etc, etc, if they record only the faces of a proportion of the population? Take a hypothetical example of a case of shop-lifting, or pick-pocketing, committed by someone enshrouded in a burka - and it happens. The police check the CCTV to see if they can identify the culprit, but all they see is a faceless nonentity shoving someone else's possessions up her (or his) sleeve. What chance is there of that person ever being apprehended? None at all. They can't even be identified by distinctive clothing because they all look exactly the same. If an untoward event takes place in any public area, those wearing burkas are the only people who are currently at liberty to remain completely anonymous - and that is quite simply wrong. They should be subject to the same enforced exposure as everyone else - and to the same rules and regulations.
Chakka and Shermi, there's no doubt that Islam is a male dominated culture, and I don't believe good manners are a consideration to people who support this. The burka encourages separation and it succeeds in creating separation - and that is the primary reason for its existence.
Chakka and Shermi, there's no doubt that Islam is a male dominated culture, and I don't believe good manners are a consideration to people who support this. The burka encourages separation and it succeeds in creating separation - and that is the primary reason for its existence.
In the 1970s people found these types of people offensive, they were rude, obnoxious, spat at people, promoted anarchy and even made a film about the overthrow of the monarchy with the Queen shown running for her life.
http://uppitywoman08....com/2009/03/punks.jpg
In the 1960s these people were villified for their subversive unpatriotic views and funny little ways.
http://cybject.files....2009/12/hippies-1.jpg
Reagan as Governor of California even spoke out against them "dressed like Tarzan, hair like Jane and smelt like Jane" should they all have been banned and made to conform?
http://uppitywoman08....com/2009/03/punks.jpg
In the 1960s these people were villified for their subversive unpatriotic views and funny little ways.
http://cybject.files....2009/12/hippies-1.jpg
Reagan as Governor of California even spoke out against them "dressed like Tarzan, hair like Jane and smelt like Jane" should they all have been banned and made to conform?
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