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FAO Naomi, JTP and Waldo (Subject Homosexuality!)
122 Answers
anyone else can answer of course but I know they will have something good to say on this!
Righ as far as i know in the bible it is hinted at that homosexuality is against god? As far as i know it is not a majro part of the bible and only mentioned in a couple of paragraphs?(please correct me if i'm wrong!)
So my question is Why has it taken so much prominence? Why has it so heavily influenced our society and pretty much ALL society? IS humanity inherantly homophobic?
Would love to hear peoples opinions
Righ as far as i know in the bible it is hinted at that homosexuality is against god? As far as i know it is not a majro part of the bible and only mentioned in a couple of paragraphs?(please correct me if i'm wrong!)
So my question is Why has it taken so much prominence? Why has it so heavily influenced our society and pretty much ALL society? IS humanity inherantly homophobic?
Would love to hear peoples opinions
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Keyplus, //just like you find nothing wrong about few parents who let their daughters have sex with different men and even have kids from as many people without anyone taking responsibility in the future,//
Where on earth did you get that idea? I've certainly never said that and actually I find plenty wrong with it. Why do you automatically assume that anyone raised in the western culture will inevitably follow the lifestyle you describe? The fact is most don't. But then you take everything to extremes, don't you? If we talk about burquas you bang on about nudity as though the whole of the western world is running around naked, so it's not completely unexpected.
As for the rest of your post, you know full well that I've read about Mohammed's life - and I've read the Koran - and I've even read the book by Gai Eaton you recommended, so I'm not going through all this rigmarole with you again. You tried to fob Waldo off with a lie (which as you should know by now is a very foolish thing to attempt). The fact is you believe it's acceptable for parents to marry their young children to grown men, and that, in my opinion, is a shameful notion that is completely devoid of rational thought, of human compassion and of plain common sense, and as such it is indefensible. Therefore it's futile to continue to try to excuse it. As I said, you've chosen to live in 21st century Europe, but heavens knows why, because you've voluntarily left your brain in 7th century Arabia.
Where on earth did you get that idea? I've certainly never said that and actually I find plenty wrong with it. Why do you automatically assume that anyone raised in the western culture will inevitably follow the lifestyle you describe? The fact is most don't. But then you take everything to extremes, don't you? If we talk about burquas you bang on about nudity as though the whole of the western world is running around naked, so it's not completely unexpected.
As for the rest of your post, you know full well that I've read about Mohammed's life - and I've read the Koran - and I've even read the book by Gai Eaton you recommended, so I'm not going through all this rigmarole with you again. You tried to fob Waldo off with a lie (which as you should know by now is a very foolish thing to attempt). The fact is you believe it's acceptable for parents to marry their young children to grown men, and that, in my opinion, is a shameful notion that is completely devoid of rational thought, of human compassion and of plain common sense, and as such it is indefensible. Therefore it's futile to continue to try to excuse it. As I said, you've chosen to live in 21st century Europe, but heavens knows why, because you've voluntarily left your brain in 7th century Arabia.
Thought this might be interesting to anyone who hasn't yet read too much on this issue........
http://news.bbc.co.uk...ddle_east/8610491.stm
The third and penultimate paragraphs are the most telling.........
http://news.bbc.co.uk...ddle_east/8610491.stm
The third and penultimate paragraphs are the most telling.........
Keyplus asks // Why people in the west always believe that whatever they do is right? //
They don't, but what people are doing in your world of Islam, Keyplus, is cruel, it's inhumane and it's absolutely morally wrong.
Here are a few more telling paragraphs:
//A nine-year-old girl has the same sexual capacities like a woman of twenty and over.
Skeikh Mohamed Ibn Abderrahmane Al-Maghraoui //
//A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives.
The late Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran, Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution//
//According to the Shari'ah, if a girl is a minor (did not attain puberty), she may be given in marriage by her father. When she attains puberty, she has the right to maintain the marriage or discontinue the marriage. There is no age limit to be intimate with one's wife even if she is a minor.
Mufti Ebrahim Desai//
//Because this happened to the Prophet, we cannot tell people that it is prohibited to marry at an early age.
Sheikh Hamoud Hashim al-Tharihi, general secretary of the Vice and Virtue Committee and member of the Islah Party in Yemen//
They don't, but what people are doing in your world of Islam, Keyplus, is cruel, it's inhumane and it's absolutely morally wrong.
Here are a few more telling paragraphs:
//A nine-year-old girl has the same sexual capacities like a woman of twenty and over.
Skeikh Mohamed Ibn Abderrahmane Al-Maghraoui //
//A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives.
The late Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran, Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution//
//According to the Shari'ah, if a girl is a minor (did not attain puberty), she may be given in marriage by her father. When she attains puberty, she has the right to maintain the marriage or discontinue the marriage. There is no age limit to be intimate with one's wife even if she is a minor.
Mufti Ebrahim Desai//
//Because this happened to the Prophet, we cannot tell people that it is prohibited to marry at an early age.
Sheikh Hamoud Hashim al-Tharihi, general secretary of the Vice and Virtue Committee and member of the Islah Party in Yemen//
Jack – Your link does not make any sense. There are many other countries where marriage (or sex according to your standards) is legal at 13 or even less. You may see the link I posted earlier. Now with one girl dying, you can’t say they are all wrong. It is like saying that if a woman die giving birth to a child then no other woman should ever try giving birth.
Naomi – I never said that YOU as a person are allowing your girls to have sex. But you can’t say that it is not happening in the west. 100% people are never same anywhere in the world. But what I said happens here in a good number of families if still not majority. Otherwise reports about Britain being teenage pregnancy capital of the Europe must be wrong. And I am sure majority of these girls are unmarried proving my point. And still that is only Britain and what about whole West?
I have seen all that copy and paste stuff ^^^ many times. Few things out of that I agree with and few I don’t. And I am sure the stance of a good number of well known scholars is same. But just simply you would not understand. And that is the reason I said this so many time before, that if someone ever force you or anyone else in this country then don’t do it. But don’t tell others what is right and what is wrong when they have their own rules and regulations as long as they are not forcing these upon you.
Naomi – I never said that YOU as a person are allowing your girls to have sex. But you can’t say that it is not happening in the west. 100% people are never same anywhere in the world. But what I said happens here in a good number of families if still not majority. Otherwise reports about Britain being teenage pregnancy capital of the Europe must be wrong. And I am sure majority of these girls are unmarried proving my point. And still that is only Britain and what about whole West?
I have seen all that copy and paste stuff ^^^ many times. Few things out of that I agree with and few I don’t. And I am sure the stance of a good number of well known scholars is same. But just simply you would not understand. And that is the reason I said this so many time before, that if someone ever force you or anyone else in this country then don’t do it. But don’t tell others what is right and what is wrong when they have their own rules and regulations as long as they are not forcing these upon you.
Keyplus, I haven't read just one book.
Jack, he seriously doesn't understand, or even attempt to think about, the difference between a woman dying in childbirth and a child dying as the result of sexual abuse. After all, they're all just females to him, so what do they matter? Let's face it, if his prophet married a child and wasn't concerned when his cronies murdered a nursing mother, why should he be concerned by the death of a child at the hands of a twisted brute - or the fate of any little girl at the mercy of a grown man? If his prophet did it, that's fine by him!! God!! Keyplus you are unbelievable!! What with that and the rest of the bile you spout, how does the civilised world even begin to address this appalling mentality? For once I'm speechless! (Don't celebrate too soon though because I can assure you it won't last!).
Jack, he seriously doesn't understand, or even attempt to think about, the difference between a woman dying in childbirth and a child dying as the result of sexual abuse. After all, they're all just females to him, so what do they matter? Let's face it, if his prophet married a child and wasn't concerned when his cronies murdered a nursing mother, why should he be concerned by the death of a child at the hands of a twisted brute - or the fate of any little girl at the mercy of a grown man? If his prophet did it, that's fine by him!! God!! Keyplus you are unbelievable!! What with that and the rest of the bile you spout, how does the civilised world even begin to address this appalling mentality? For once I'm speechless! (Don't celebrate too soon though because I can assure you it won't last!).
Keyplus, right now I have my breath back, I'll respond to your post to me.
//Few things out of that I agree with and few I don’t. And I am sure the stance of a good number of well known scholars is same.//
Well known scholars? I presume you're talking about religious clerics, because you can't possibly be referring to anyone who knows anything about the human body or the human psyche. Perhaps this from an Islamic website will help:
Nine-year-old girls in our countries are not able to take responsibility of husbands and families. Scientifically and realistically, they are too young for sexual intercourse, pregnancy, childbirth, and breastfeeding. Therefore, marriage at this young age, quash their childhood and cause them great harm and suffering, while our Prophet said that "no harm should be inflicted or reciprocated."
http://www.islamonlin...lar&cid=1258880761824
Do you see what your prophet said? Now whom are you going to believe? You constantly tell us that Islam promotes education and advancement, but you reject education and advancement because you refuse to accept anything that clashes with your antiquated beliefs and therefore your mind remains forever buried in the barbaric past - and this is barbaric.
continued...
//Few things out of that I agree with and few I don’t. And I am sure the stance of a good number of well known scholars is same.//
Well known scholars? I presume you're talking about religious clerics, because you can't possibly be referring to anyone who knows anything about the human body or the human psyche. Perhaps this from an Islamic website will help:
Nine-year-old girls in our countries are not able to take responsibility of husbands and families. Scientifically and realistically, they are too young for sexual intercourse, pregnancy, childbirth, and breastfeeding. Therefore, marriage at this young age, quash their childhood and cause them great harm and suffering, while our Prophet said that "no harm should be inflicted or reciprocated."
http://www.islamonlin...lar&cid=1258880761824
Do you see what your prophet said? Now whom are you going to believe? You constantly tell us that Islam promotes education and advancement, but you reject education and advancement because you refuse to accept anything that clashes with your antiquated beliefs and therefore your mind remains forever buried in the barbaric past - and this is barbaric.
continued...
...continued
And suddenly I am to mind my own business because this doesn't affect me? That's rich coming from you!! But no chance, Keyplus. Any human being in their right mind condemns child abuse - and that is precisely what this is. People the world over, including very many Muslims, oppose your appalling philosophy because quite simply they are intelligent enough to understand that it is uncivilised, it is inhumane, and morally, it is very, very wrong. You are now living in a society far removed from the tribesmen of ancient Arabia, and you have every opportunity to educate yourself - so follow the advice of your religion - and do it.
And suddenly I am to mind my own business because this doesn't affect me? That's rich coming from you!! But no chance, Keyplus. Any human being in their right mind condemns child abuse - and that is precisely what this is. People the world over, including very many Muslims, oppose your appalling philosophy because quite simply they are intelligent enough to understand that it is uncivilised, it is inhumane, and morally, it is very, very wrong. You are now living in a society far removed from the tribesmen of ancient Arabia, and you have every opportunity to educate yourself - so follow the advice of your religion - and do it.
Keyplus, you really are sick!!! how can anybody in their right mind think that sex with a 13 year old in right let alone younger than 13!!!
Keyplus you really need medical help!!
I don't even understand how any normal man can even find such an immature girl attractive, I suppose that is why we in the west put pedophiles in mental institutions or prisons as being mentally unstable and where they are constantly humiliated and beaten by fellow prisoners or patients and rightly so!!
If any man even touched a young girl in my family I would personally rip his genitals from his body and push them down his throat and choke him to death!!!
Keyplus, You and your religion really bring out the most hatred in me and make feel so sick!!
I really hope you never have daughters as I imagine that they could also be subjected to this kind of disgusting abuse that you find acceptable!!!
Like Naomi has said, they are not physically or mentally prepared for sex at that age let alone have a child. I accept that this does happen in the west, though never condoned by any sane person or by any acceptable religion in the west. The perpetrators (paedophiles) of such acts are considered the lowest piece of dirt in the west, you are obviously considered to be equal to these after reading you opinions.
People and perverts like you really should be ejected from any civilised society!!
Keyplus you really need medical help!!
I don't even understand how any normal man can even find such an immature girl attractive, I suppose that is why we in the west put pedophiles in mental institutions or prisons as being mentally unstable and where they are constantly humiliated and beaten by fellow prisoners or patients and rightly so!!
If any man even touched a young girl in my family I would personally rip his genitals from his body and push them down his throat and choke him to death!!!
Keyplus, You and your religion really bring out the most hatred in me and make feel so sick!!
I really hope you never have daughters as I imagine that they could also be subjected to this kind of disgusting abuse that you find acceptable!!!
Like Naomi has said, they are not physically or mentally prepared for sex at that age let alone have a child. I accept that this does happen in the west, though never condoned by any sane person or by any acceptable religion in the west. The perpetrators (paedophiles) of such acts are considered the lowest piece of dirt in the west, you are obviously considered to be equal to these after reading you opinions.
People and perverts like you really should be ejected from any civilised society!!
This is what I said on 22nd May at 12:11.......... Reference you people use is Muhammad (pbuh) marriage to Ayesha. First of all that is not something Muslims have never heard before, then that is usually based upon ONLY ONE HADITH and Muslims do not know Muhammad (pbuh) only for that reason. Have you ever read about his life apart from odd information of the websites....................... However even if she was 9 (which I believe she was not) then it was very normal 1400 years ago due to various reasons.
This is what I was asked on another thread in September 2009.................. would you give your 9 year old daughter up for wedlock ? and would you be happy for her to go and live with her husband from that point ?
And this was my answer then ............. Ankou - In that sense it is very simple "NO". As I believe in present time 9 year is too young to marry even if she or he has reached puberty.
Few people claim to have very good memory but I have always had my doubts as I have about their other abilities. And then there is so much about this same topic for anyone who is interested. So here is the thread.
http://www.theanswerb...Question803756-2.html
cont:
This is what I was asked on another thread in September 2009.................. would you give your 9 year old daughter up for wedlock ? and would you be happy for her to go and live with her husband from that point ?
And this was my answer then ............. Ankou - In that sense it is very simple "NO". As I believe in present time 9 year is too young to marry even if she or he has reached puberty.
Few people claim to have very good memory but I have always had my doubts as I have about their other abilities. And then there is so much about this same topic for anyone who is interested. So here is the thread.
http://www.theanswerb...Question803756-2.html
cont:
Con:
Naomi – Thanks for your post ^^^^ at 8:27 where you are trying to tell me what I have told you myself so many time, which is that “Muslims look at Muhammad (pbuh) whole life”. But reality is that if I had posted what you have from the website “Islamonline” then I am sure you would have rejected that as it has happened so many times before. Alhamdulillah (thanks to God) you have started seeing the light. But I will post exactly the same link again and ask people to read it and see if you find similarities in that and what I have said in this thread and the one I have posted this link in this post. Finally Thanks Naomi- I appreciate that.
http://www.islamonlin...lar&cid=1258880761824
Naomi – Thanks for your post ^^^^ at 8:27 where you are trying to tell me what I have told you myself so many time, which is that “Muslims look at Muhammad (pbuh) whole life”. But reality is that if I had posted what you have from the website “Islamonline” then I am sure you would have rejected that as it has happened so many times before. Alhamdulillah (thanks to God) you have started seeing the light. But I will post exactly the same link again and ask people to read it and see if you find similarities in that and what I have said in this thread and the one I have posted this link in this post. Finally Thanks Naomi- I appreciate that.
http://www.islamonlin...lar&cid=1258880761824
Keyplus, //Alhamdulillah (thanks to God) you have started seeing the light.//
Oh, good grief!! Now I know you've lost the plot! Oh, yes. I've seen the light - but only where your mentality is concerned - and it's no thanks to your God, but to my own rationality because, unlike you, I am in possession of my own mind. You don't even recognise the contradictions in your own faith do you - or in what you say? I posted several quotes - all of them condoning the marriage of children to grown men - some of which you agree with. In fact, there's no two ways about it - by your own admission you endorse the marriage of children to adults.
Then I posted a link to an Islamic website that in an effort to emphasise that such marriages are completely and utterly wrong, quotes your prophet - and you agree with that too. I wonder if you can spot your mistake? How terribly confusing it must be for you. You have to agree with the 'well known scholars' you continually mention, but then Mohammed himself pops up, and of course, you can't possibly disagree with him - despite the fact that he doesn't agree with the 'well known scholars'. If it wasn't so terribly sad, I'd laugh - but I can't. What pathetic specimens of humanity your religion breeds.
continued...
Oh, good grief!! Now I know you've lost the plot! Oh, yes. I've seen the light - but only where your mentality is concerned - and it's no thanks to your God, but to my own rationality because, unlike you, I am in possession of my own mind. You don't even recognise the contradictions in your own faith do you - or in what you say? I posted several quotes - all of them condoning the marriage of children to grown men - some of which you agree with. In fact, there's no two ways about it - by your own admission you endorse the marriage of children to adults.
Then I posted a link to an Islamic website that in an effort to emphasise that such marriages are completely and utterly wrong, quotes your prophet - and you agree with that too. I wonder if you can spot your mistake? How terribly confusing it must be for you. You have to agree with the 'well known scholars' you continually mention, but then Mohammed himself pops up, and of course, you can't possibly disagree with him - despite the fact that he doesn't agree with the 'well known scholars'. If it wasn't so terribly sad, I'd laugh - but I can't. What pathetic specimens of humanity your religion breeds.
continued...
...continued
A few days ago you spoke of the need for parents to protect their small children from harm by installing stair gates, and you likened that to a need for God to guide the human race. Well, I've got news for you, Keyplus. You're not a child who needs to be led by the hand - or in your case, by the nose. You're a 40-plus year old man and it's high time you grew up and learnt to think for yourself. I can hardly believe that any grown man can bear to abandon his own intellect so readily, and allow himself to be manipulated so totally by other men (which is precisely what's happened to you) in such a way that he becomes utterly dependent upon them, and hence completely incapable of utilising his own faculties.
By the way, if you ever posted a link to something from an Islamic website that I agreed with, make no mistake, I would say I agreed. However, you have never posted such a link - but I have.
A few days ago you spoke of the need for parents to protect their small children from harm by installing stair gates, and you likened that to a need for God to guide the human race. Well, I've got news for you, Keyplus. You're not a child who needs to be led by the hand - or in your case, by the nose. You're a 40-plus year old man and it's high time you grew up and learnt to think for yourself. I can hardly believe that any grown man can bear to abandon his own intellect so readily, and allow himself to be manipulated so totally by other men (which is precisely what's happened to you) in such a way that he becomes utterly dependent upon them, and hence completely incapable of utilising his own faculties.
By the way, if you ever posted a link to something from an Islamic website that I agreed with, make no mistake, I would say I agreed. However, you have never posted such a link - but I have.
Naomi – How should I start, probably by saying that you are a more confused character than I ever thought.
I never endorse (I have no right to) marriage of children but I said if someone else ”Parents” do it when it is right according to their own mentality then I have no right to object.
I am sure you possess your own mind as you were born with whatever you know today. You have never been influenced by anyone else. I wonder if you can speak Chinese from your own mind. Of course there are so many things which if you have never learnt from someone else (influence) again then you are Guinness Book Of record case. Title should read “A WOMAN WHO WERE BORN WITH ALL SOFTWARE PRELOADED”. Now that makes me laugh too.
I remember you asking people on “Home & Garden” if these things work,
http://www.diytools.c...trasonic-repeller.asp
I wonder why you needed to have someone else’s opinion in that case.
I never endorse (I have no right to) marriage of children but I said if someone else ”Parents” do it when it is right according to their own mentality then I have no right to object.
I am sure you possess your own mind as you were born with whatever you know today. You have never been influenced by anyone else. I wonder if you can speak Chinese from your own mind. Of course there are so many things which if you have never learnt from someone else (influence) again then you are Guinness Book Of record case. Title should read “A WOMAN WHO WERE BORN WITH ALL SOFTWARE PRELOADED”. Now that makes me laugh too.
I remember you asking people on “Home & Garden” if these things work,
http://www.diytools.c...trasonic-repeller.asp
I wonder why you needed to have someone else’s opinion in that case.
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