Advice For Daughter Please?

[Smowball]

I’m staying in Norfolk for 2 days to visit family/drop Xmas presents off. I saw daughter yesterday and she is at the absolute end of her tether with her 3 yr old girl. She is very bright, very tall for her age and speaks very well - she understands everything you say and can have a complete conversation with her so she knows what she is doing and saying.
But..... she has the most incredible temper tantrums about absolutely nothing, and about 20 times a day! I’ve seen them and omg..... as for bed time.....
For example it will be dinner and she’ll ask for orange squash. Are you sure? Yes. Is given the squash. She shoves cup across table and goes into full meltdown. DIDNT WANT SQUASH!!!!! They’ve tried ignoring her, telling her off, taking the squash away, trying to calm her down and reason with her, naughty step....nothing works.
Bedtime lastnight. All kisses and cuddles. Takes her to bed. Gets in bed just fine. Mum isn’t even at top of stairs and she is behind her screaming IM NOT TIRED!!!!! Bearing in mind daughter also has a 17 month old she can’t let her just carry on screaming. They did lastnight and she kept it going for well over an hour.
My daughter just collapsed sobbing onto the sofa. This is absolutely every single day and I just don’t know what to suggest anymore.
Any advice??

[woofgang]

errrmmm pixie, because Smow thinks so

[pixie374]

Smow says what? Sorry...

[pixie374]

Oh, I see... I was referring to the "mental illness" comment.

[jno]

pixie, 20 times a day about nothing isn't really normal, that's why smow's asking the question.

I don 't see any point in getting hung up on whether it is/isn't a mental problem: it's a problem of some sort and I'd certainly be seeking medical help if I were the mother.

[pixie374]

No, I agree- there is nothing wrong with getting an assessment and some help.

[LewPaper]

I think you're trying to put words into my mouth woof. I didn't say anything about seeing or not seeing an expert - of COURSE that's a way to travel. I mentioned the wisdom of some idiot pouring even more (unnecessary) concern on this than there is already.

[pixie374]

Yes, it was the "obviously a serious mental illness" that I was wary of too.

[mikey4444]

Pixie...I only know what Smowy has told us, and it seems rather more than ordinary tantrums.

It does, however, have more than a touch of 1st/2nd sibling rivalry....in other words. the 3 years old is jealous of the attention that the younger child is having. But even that wouldn't normally account for such extreme behaviour problems.

As someone has suggested earlier, it wouldn't hurt to have the child checked out properly.

[pixie374]

No... That seems like the best way to go, imo.

[kvalidir]

If a child has a melt down no matter where or who it is with then it might have a problem that needs a diagnosis, however if a child is as good as gold everywhere with everyone else and only tries to dominate and push a certain person's buttons, then it's just a very bright, very naughty child. My brother's little girl will push her parent's buttons all she can but she never ever tries it with me or my partner because we don't tolerate it, she knows she can scream the place down for a week straight if she wants but she'll get nowhere where as her poor parents had tried everything and she was just as entertained as heck that she could wind them up and watch them go. We ensure she's okay not in danger/ hurt/ tired/ cold/ hungry/ thirsty whatever and the entirely act as if she's not there until she calmed down, and when she does anything good we praise her to the skies. When she is quiet and cooperative there are spontaneous treats, consequently she copped on really quickly that tantrums made her life unpleasant and not having them made it better. Her parent have adopted the same approach now and she is ever so much better than she was, because she was a proper horror and they were demoralised and exhausted.

[Cloverjo]

Exactly what I was trying to say, kvalidir.

[Peter Pedant]

My lady mother took on her grandchildren on the basis of a 1910 British Raj nursery in Bombay
and it er didnt seem to harm them in any way
( manners were good by God!)

[bednobs]

Hi I am not able to read all the responses but it sounds to me like the child is being a 3 year old. I think your daughter has always been a bit fragile, even from when pregnant (unless that was a different child?) And probably needs help herself rather than for the child

[jourdain2]

I haven't read all the answers either (sorry I'm a bit late, Smow) but we'd much the same problem with one of granddaughters (an only child). I was living in France at the time and didn't really understand the problem until I visited them and my son-in-Law came downstairs, shattered after spending over an hour trying to get granddaughter to bed. The bed-time story had degenerated into shouts and screams.
Daughter ahd husband were looking at each other desperately, so I ventured to tell them that g-daughter had achieved her aim - over an hour of her dad's undivided attention; maybe not the attention she wanted, but still making them dance to her tune.
She is a very intelligent, academic little girl (now 12, came 3rd in a national writing competition and had to be moved up a school year).
My advice was to kick the 'Little Princess' out of the way, trim the number of toys, spend time teaching her to read more quickly and put her to bed with books and 15 mins. reading time (after being read to) before a firm 'lights out'. Then go downstairs and ignore.

They had a difficult week or two, but turned their approach around so that the basis was that good behaviour was the norm and to be expected, not rewarded.

She is now the most delightful companion, ambitious, in school netball team, writing stories, filling her days positively and constructively and aiming for a Russell Group University place. At 12!

There is a complication for you in jealousy and competition with the new tot, but I'm certain that it is pure attention-seeking behaviour. Ignore her behaviour, put other strategies in place, teach her to read, stretch her so she can genuinely be praised, is my advice. Good luck. :)

[Smowball]

Bednobs yes daughter does have a short temper and gets stressed very easily but I don’t, and even this would test me. Interestingly today little one wanted to play a highly complicated game at the table involving literally endless teeny dolls, accessories, bowls etc. Which I hate lol but did it. This bit had to go here and that bit had to go there. Took forever!! She loved it. Daughter said OMG I just don’t have the time to do that and she doesn’t with the baby.
Fast forward to bed time again. She cuddled me and watched a film. All kisses and cuddles. She actually said I’m really tired now. Waved and went to bed. Mum gets to bottom of stairs and we hear the whining start. Imagine Kevin and Perry..... daughter shouts up the stairs don’t even start. I manage to make daughter sit down and said do NOT react. That’s what she wants. She reluctantly did so. 20 mins later - silence.

[bednobs]

I'm not sure if I mentioned this before but does she have a local home start service? When my baby was brand new I was referred to them because I am disabled and found being a parent overwhelming. Coupled with the fact I had some complex bereavement issues at the time. Well that service was fantastic. I was assigned a volunteer - an experienced mum to give me wise friend type of advice. She would come once a week ostensibly to help me bathe my daughter, but really so much more. Emotional support, advice and reassurance, sanity checking and so o n. Her visits often ended up in a tea biscuits and chat manner (bath forgotten) She came for about six months and now she's no longer my volunteer our families are great friends. The health visitor referred me

[Mamyalynne]

What a brilliant idea that could help many Bednobs.

Link here for Smow

https://www.home-start.org.uk/

[Smowball]

Very interesting bednobs/ mamya - thankyou! X

[bednobs]

The problem may well be getting her to agree to a referral. I was dubious at first, not wanting it to look to the outside world that I needed help. Also I always assumed the service was for (forgive me please but I can't think of a way of articulating it) manky poor people with no clue or Inexperience teenage chavs with 3 babies who had never worked and no dads around. What could older middle class me have in common with those people? I am very happy to say I was completely wrong! And my volunteer was a lifeline in those days where parenting seemed like the hardest job in the world

[cassa333]

But when she is having these temper tantrums what does she want? What placates her. What makes her stop?

I have had this sort of behaviour from my DD for donkeys years and even back then if she created a scene I would frog March her up to her room and tell her she can come back out when she has calmed down. Still do it now and she isn't 14.

She may be bright and understand what you say but emotionally and intellectually she is unable to cope. Therefore she still needs to be treated with a consistent and firm control.