Trevor Phillips

[Ducati]

Quote from Trevor Phillips "We need more male black teachers, tempting them with extra cash if necessary".

 

I'm appalled - the Commission for Racial Equality is advocating inequality.

 

Is this an example of 'acceptable' racism, acceptable in that its OK to discriminate against white people.

[FP]

Sorry Ducati, our posts coincided.  I will make a note under mine to put all answers under yours, although mine was in respect of the children.  However, I totally agree with you and am also appalled for the same reasons.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Actually, I think you miss the double discrimination effect to it, which is that it has a negative effect on those who prosper under it. It's like quotas in US universities - the ethnic minority graduates run the risk of having their being dissmissed since some will say, 'oh, you only got in because of quotas' regardless of whether that is true. In this case, the teachers who benefit are hardly likely to be popular with their non-black colleagues.

However, as to the notion that it might give black boys a better chance if they are taught separately, I don't have a problem with that in essence, as long as it is being used to create a level playing field and not one that is not level but in a different direction.

[ursula62]

I'm not sure that Trevor Phillips' suggestion is the right one, but he is surely correct in that things cannot continue as they are.

In the "olden days" (i.e. before I was at school in the 60s) there were separate entrances for boys and girls in junior schools and they were taught in separate classrooms. My old junior school still had "boys" and "girls" carved in the stone over the entrance gates.

There is no doubt that being taught some subjects separately was of benefit to both boys and girls (whatever their skin colour). Boys and girls learn differently, and in today's "one size fits all" method of education doesn't benefit everyone. 

Perhaps we should consider going back to teaching the sexes their core subjects separately, e.g. reading, writing and maths, and come together for lessons like science, history and geography.

[Ducati]

Yes ursula62, I wholeheartedly agree - something does need to be done to help black boys (although I think helping themselves and them actually wanting to learn is the biggest battle), but it is the whole positive discrimination thing that really gets on my nerves - why is it deemed acceptable to openly advertise for black, asian, gay, lesbian etc... for posts, but if you advertised for a white heterosexual male you'd be hauled over the coals. The whole raison d'etre for the CRE is to ensure certain sectors of society are not discriminated against, but by suggesting that black male teachers should be paid more than their white colleagues is the very thing that this quango (is it a quango?) was set up to combat: the CRE can't have it both ways. 

Great, get more black men into the teaching profession if that's the answer, but to pay them more than their colleagues just because they happen to be black is utterly abhorrent.

[FP]

Agree with you totally Ducati.

And if groups of kids need extra tuition in separate classes then that facility should be open to all colours and all sexes.  For example I've no objection to 'Black Boy Only' classes as long as nobody objects to 'White Girl Only' classes.

As far as I am concerned it is discrimination.

[ursula62]

Sorry Ducati, I was really answering FP's post, which dealt with the other part of the story - educating black boys separately from other children.

I don't think it is right to pay black teachers more than non black ones, any more than I think it is right to lower entry standards for "ethnic minorities" for police forces.

In an ideal world, the proportions of teachers, and police, would reflect the percentages of racial mix in the population nationwide. But we don't live in an ideal world!

But the truth of the matter is that we do have a deficit of black male teachers. Perhaps rather than paying one gender of one particular race more, we need to concentrate on raising the profile of ALL teachers. At the moment they have a hard job for very little financial reward or recognition. We need to improve the respect for teachers in society in general, we need to improve their prospects and salaries, not create even more divisions in an already divided profession.

When I was at school we wouldn't have dreamed of cheeking a teacher. Now parents encourage this sort of behaviour in their children saying "it's cute" or "it's just the way he is". Discipline in the home would help.

I read an article some time ago about some Afro-Caribbean families who send their children back to Jamaica or Barbados because they believe they get better education there than they do here in the UK.  The standard of teaching is probably the same, but there is more discipline in the schools.

[El D]

Why should there be a representation according to % evident in the general populace - this is only a factor if people still consider there to be some difference between races . . . I hate this notion, it is stupid and a remnant of PC. It will not solve anything.

[ursula62]

FP - it's not that it "should" it's just that in an ideal world it "would".

There's a big difference!!

[ursula62]

Sorry - El D not FP!

[QmunkE]

I can't believe that with only an average of 52% of pupils getting five or more C grades or better that the government is still committed to 50% of young people going to university! I think that it's not just black boys who need attention, although I can see that the percentage is frighteningly low (35%?)

Are 50% of people just not turning up to school? With the amount of GCSEs to choose from now, surely people can manage five out of 8/9/10?

[Ouisch]

Bill Cosby gave an interesting speech along these lines not too long ago.  It was on the 50th anniversary of the Brown vs Topeka Board of Education decision, which declared that racial segregation in public schools was illegal.  Cosby pretty much put the blame of black youth not wanting to learn squarely on the parents:

Some of the points he made:

Brown versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person�s problem.  ....  this is the future, and all of these people who lined up and done -- they�ve got to be wondering what the hell happened. Brown V. Board of Education -- these people who marched and were hit in the face with rocks and punched in the face to get an education and we got these knuckleheads walking around who don�t want to learn English....Basketball players -- multimillionaires can�t write a paragraph. Football players, multimillionaires, can�t read. Yes. Multimillionaires. Well, Brown v. Board of Education, where are we today? It�s there. They paved the way. What did we do with it? The White Man, he�s laughing -- got to be laughing. 50 percent drop out -- rest of them in prison....Ladies and gentlemen, listen to these people. They are showing you what�s wrong. People putting their clothes on backwards. Isn�t that a sign of something going on wrong? Are you not paying attention? People with their hat on backwards, pants down around the crack. Isn�t that a sign of something or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up? Isn�t it a sign of something when she�s got her dress all the way up to the crack -- and got all kinds of needles and things going through her body. What part of Africa did this come from? We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans; they don�t know a damned thing about Africa. With names like Shaniqua, Shaligua, Mohammed and all that crap and all of them are in jail.

[silly moo]

Of course it's an example of 2acceptable racism" - at least it is if you believe any racism is acceptable.
For several years now we have been told that only whites are racist, only men are sexist, etc etc.
Why can we not accept thet we are all equal and different. Personally I couldn't give a damn if a person is black, brown , white , yellow or sky blue pink with yellow dots.
Young black boys are doing badly at school because they can't be bothered to learn. Young chinese do incredibly well.=, as do several other racial groupings. There are young people of every racial grouping who do well at school and those who do not dowell.
If apartheid was wrong in SA then surely segregation is wrong in the UK.

[Corsair]

There should just be smaller class sizes and more staff so teachers can give more attention to all pupils.

[secretspirit]

I think that by practising 'positive discrimination' all you're doing is creating more tension between races. I'm sure every teacher would like to feel they got a job on their own merits rather than because of their colour and it must make for bad feeling in the staff room as well.