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Are atheists evil?
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This question comes from Everton's conclusion on the rov1200 Darwin thread that between religion and atheism, religion is the lesser of the two evils. So, are atheists evil, and if so, why?
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I think Ankou 'good' can be divided. People can be 'quite good or really good or really very good'. You've called yourself 'exceptionally good' (Wow! I don't doubt it!) I, myself don't mind being good but I don't want to be really good. There's no fun in that. Anyway, I think there is a degree to the 'goodness' but in respect of evil - one is either evil or they are not. It's an absolute. You can't be slightly evil? But I accept that an evil 'act' can be distinguished from 'becoming' evil. One is as you describe, a moment the other is continuous.
Naomi, do I understand you correctly when I say in regard to your 16:28 Wed post then that there is a difference between moral evil and religious evil? Accepting that the word 'Sin' is in a religious context, you then continue to say 'Some Atheists may commit evil deeds, and they may acknowledge that their actions are evil..' - by placing the word 'evil' in a moral context, you have answered your own question that Atheists can be morally evil.
And then you go on to talk about how religion is evil? Sophie makes a good point. It is all about interpretation and to add, misinterpretation. By saying that the doctrine is evil - not the believers - I think is omitting an essential component in interpretation. The fact that the believer is a complex individual, contaminated and conditioned by society and culture, the moment they are born. Whether they have a moral structure or/and freewill or not too chose is most likely dependent upon the society in which they are born into.
Naomi, do I understand you correctly when I say in regard to your 16:28 Wed post then that there is a difference between moral evil and religious evil? Accepting that the word 'Sin' is in a religious context, you then continue to say 'Some Atheists may commit evil deeds, and they may acknowledge that their actions are evil..' - by placing the word 'evil' in a moral context, you have answered your own question that Atheists can be morally evil.
And then you go on to talk about how religion is evil? Sophie makes a good point. It is all about interpretation and to add, misinterpretation. By saying that the doctrine is evil - not the believers - I think is omitting an essential component in interpretation. The fact that the believer is a complex individual, contaminated and conditioned by society and culture, the moment they are born. Whether they have a moral structure or/and freewill or not too chose is most likely dependent upon the society in which they are born into.
Seadragon, I think you're tying yourself up in knots to a degree by saying that I've omitted an essential component in interpretation. We're talking about doctrine - not the interpretation that individuals place upon that doctrine, and I've already said that atheists can be morally evil. 'Sin' does not necessarily equate to 'crime', and neither does it necessarily relate to morally objectionable acts. Sin is a transgression against God's will, and as such, is a religious concept that atheists do not, and cannot, adhere to. Furthermore, sin does not necessarily relate to a contravention of ethical principles in the rational sense. Both you and Sophie speak of interpretation, and you speak of individuals being contaminated and conditioned by society and culture, but according to the Christian church, all babies are born sinners. Are they? What have they done? This is not a moral issue and there can be no interpretation of this particular doctrine. It is a fundamental tenet of Christianity, and it means what it says. All men are born sinners - and therein, in my opinion, lies just one of the evils of religion that, as a major cultural influence, does, as you rightly say, condition people from the moment they're born.
'according to the Christian church, all babies are born sinners'
you call that evil, i just call it ***. i don't see evil in that, just twaddle. some people might believe in it and have their child baptised. again twaddle, but i don't see it as evil. that kid might grow up to follow the religion they might not, they might be caled a sinner. twaddle. not evil.
why are you changing the parameters of your post ? being baptised at brith was said to have come about by the practice of attempting to cleanse the child of the sins of their parents. of course this is twadlle. not evil. so you reallly have taken us in circles as it brings us back to my pos in the holocaust thread yesterday 'the sins of parents cannot be visited upon children'.
seadragon, you are naughty, but i like you !
you call that evil, i just call it ***. i don't see evil in that, just twaddle. some people might believe in it and have their child baptised. again twaddle, but i don't see it as evil. that kid might grow up to follow the religion they might not, they might be caled a sinner. twaddle. not evil.
why are you changing the parameters of your post ? being baptised at brith was said to have come about by the practice of attempting to cleanse the child of the sins of their parents. of course this is twadlle. not evil. so you reallly have taken us in circles as it brings us back to my pos in the holocaust thread yesterday 'the sins of parents cannot be visited upon children'.
seadragon, you are naughty, but i like you !
Oh my God! You can be so rude Naomi. That comment to Ankou is uncalled for. AB is open to every being with a computer and they are welcome at anytime to comment. Thanks for your response Ankou. Although Naomi, you can be intellectually demanding and persistent (I mean that as a compliment) But, I stand by my view that you are making a mistake to dismiss the believer as being an essential component because it is due to the believer that religion and thus doctrine survives today. I'm having difficulty with your thread for the reason that you acknowledge the question 'Are Atheists evil? has been answered by distinguishing the religious and non-religious contexts of the term. 'Why' part, I consider lies in Psychology?
I accept your focus on the 'Sin' part since the word has a religious connotation. It is separated from moral and ethical principles. But then you go into the religious realm of Christianity. I am not a religious scholar - in fact religion doesn't interest me, Philosophy does. (Although there's lots of it!) However you draw an example yourself by stating the Christian Church doctrine of 'all babies are born sinners'. I don't know any Christians who thought that of their child? Maybe in another strict Christian society this maybe but Christianity is probably one of the most interpretated religions in the world. And maybe most religions have something that is ageeable and not within them that followers extricate according to the time in history and place they are from.
I mean that Waco fanatic - David Koresh drew from religion (Old Testament I think) and interpretated it for his own means abusing children and resulting in the death of over 50 people. Even Philip Garrido, Jaycee Lee Dugard's kidnapper is insistent that we will all realise 'God's work' through the 'evil' deeds he committed.
I accept your focus on the 'Sin' part since the word has a religious connotation. It is separated from moral and ethical principles. But then you go into the religious realm of Christianity. I am not a religious scholar - in fact religion doesn't interest me, Philosophy does. (Although there's lots of it!) However you draw an example yourself by stating the Christian Church doctrine of 'all babies are born sinners'. I don't know any Christians who thought that of their child? Maybe in another strict Christian society this maybe but Christianity is probably one of the most interpretated religions in the world. And maybe most religions have something that is ageeable and not within them that followers extricate according to the time in history and place they are from.
I mean that Waco fanatic - David Koresh drew from religion (Old Testament I think) and interpretated it for his own means abusing children and resulting in the death of over 50 people. Even Philip Garrido, Jaycee Lee Dugard's kidnapper is insistent that we will all realise 'God's work' through the 'evil' deeds he committed.
Well at least something positive has come out of this thread, that you Naomi and Ankou can agree and have a laugh. No I'm done with religion. It has been a demanding 2 days. My life has been on hold whilst I think about what you guys and others are saying. It is all a learning experience and maybe in time I will read the Bible or other religious texts but at the moment my Barrack Obama book has been ignored as well as my work. I am looking forward to having a break this weekend and wish all you guys a peaceful and happy weekend. x
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