HOLOCAUST

[izzieamy]

Should jews forgive those who were responsible for the holocaust ? what do you think ?

[Seadragon]

Hi Beso, I appreciate your opinion and clearly you're very passionate about your views. But religion can be a good thing for lots of people and not everyone follows their doctrine to the 'tee' (I think that's the word). You say 'God is a construct of religion', true but God can be interpretated to mean whatever the Interpreter wants it to be. We should continue this another day, I really need to leave this computer off! But Beso, I thank you for the time and effort of your posts and I will re-read them.

However I don't appreciate you saying 'I implore people to consider this reality and CAST OUT THEIR PRIMITIVE FAITHS IN A SEARCH FOR TRUE SPIRITUALITY AND ENLIGHTENMENT. The future of humanity depends on it.' Firstly, I'm entitled to believe what I want, however primitive it may seem to you. If you can voice your opinion then so can I.
Secondly, some of the stuff you wrote actually has the effect of contaminating my mind against Jews of whom I have never judged. 'The future of humanity depends on it.' Fair enough, but the family of Jews I know I wish to remain on good terms with.

[naomi24]

Seadragon, yes, you can voice your opinion as well as anyone else - that's what R&S is all about - but just consider for a moment the influence, and the effect, that religion is having on this world. Beso is right when he implores people to cast off their primitive faiths - and despite your objections, the fact is these faiths are primitive. If those who profess faith continue to believe as they do, then Armageddon will happen, religion will bring it about, and so the future of humanity does depend upon the religious relinquishing their beliefs. People who think like Beso and me, and all those who attempt to introduce a little reason into the minds of the faithful, are the real peace-lovers in this world - not the religious. They are only concerned with saving their own souls, and in winning a futile battle against others who, oddly enough, believe in precisely the same God. In their unrelenting efforts, they are proceeding to, and will eventually succeed in, dragging the rest of the world into oblivion with them. Utter madness! (And if you think me calling this utter madness is an insult, then I can only suggest you examine your own philosophy).

As for the effect that Beso's post had on you, I have Jewish friends, Christian friends, and a Muslim friend, but whilst I abhor their religious beliefs, I don't dislike them as people. I just wish they would think a little more deeply, and a little more seriously, about what they are actually promoting and subscribing to.

[beso]

I'm sorry it ir appears I am only targeting the Jewish faith. They are simply closer to the centre of the problem becude they as specifically exalthed in the OT as God's own people. The same attitude has been echoed by many a regime so please don't only think of it tems of the Jews. I mean to particularly include all those faiths derived from the Abrahamic tradition. Half the people on the planet subscribe to them. I have nothing against these people for who they are but I cannot stand by and let them gleefully lead the world into Armageddon just so they can prove a point about their prophets being right.

I am happy for people to continue to belive whatever thay want. However people who hold these values should not be part of the making decisions about the future of humanity. They should not be free to teach lies to children. And they certainly should not be exempt from taxation.

I am also happy for people to take on the argument against my position. I am confident that I can debate the position from any start and still be able to assert that many of the problems in our societies stem from religious attitudes (both theistic and atheistic dogma). When the extent of the critique thrown back at me is simply that it is "not appreciated" and that others "have a right to their opinion" then I don't think my position on theis has been the least bit undermined.

I have had Jehovah Witenesses prosletising at my door and I spoken with tthem at length. When they left they told me that they had never considered many aspects of what I had raised and they a felt strong need to go away and deeply consider their faith. There is not need to insult people with lies. The Bible itself provides the evidence. People are reasonable. Usually they retreat if they become uncomfortable but if the tiniest seed of doubt can be sown then that is making a difference.

[beso]

The fact that what I have written is found to be deeply disturbing and even affects how you think about religious people is important. You will need to deal with it. However I implore anyone reading it not to let it affect the way they feel about their friends of faith. These people are under an ancient spell. Many have been raised this way. They certainly do not need to be villified as human beings. They need our help to realise what they are doing. If we do this then we to are exercising the primitive instincts of the animal we inhabit.

Most of all we must provide an escape from the indoctination of childeren. Few religious people will break free and we must accept that. However we can do so much to help prevent the minds of the children of another generation being poisoned.

The religious tension around the planet have not been as high as they are now since the Crusades. Now we have the capability to destroy ourselves. I suspect things will get a lot worse before they get better but the dismantling of religios believ is a fundamental key to a brighter tomorrow.