London shooting

[chompu]

 I know this subject has already attracted much debate but I am curious what action those ABs, who have been critical of the police to a greater or lesser extent,would have taken in the circumstances as we know them. I haven't seen any solutions from them among their replies.

[magicbeatle]

Yes Oneeyedvic, We are brainwashed britain. Brainwashed by political correctness! I agree entirely with nedflanders. It's alright for you pc lot to say the police were wrong, but you wasnt in their shoes at the time. Of course its a shame an innocent man died, but their was no other way. I would'nt risk my life using handcuffs or a stun gun on someone I honestly believed to have a bomb on them. And I DO believe that the police thought he was a terrorist. Stop sl*gging of the police and let them try to save lives by stopping these B*stards the best way they can. Do any of you actually have to use the tube?

[Oneeyedvic]

Magic beatle.....

"Stop sl*gging of the police and let them try to save lives by stopping these B*stards the best way they can"

.......sorry my mistake, I didn't realsie that they saved lives by shooting innocent people.

"brainwashed by political correctness" - sorry - missed that class - didn't relaise it was politically correct to shoot an innocent person.

You also say "there was no other way" - as you correctly point out, I wasn't there and I doubt you were - so how exactly do you know there was no other way?

Personally, I find it amazing that the police can follow someone for 2 1/2 miles, and when they decied that they want to apprehend him, there are no uniformed officers and noone close enough to him for him to be able to do a runner.

Also slighlty bemused by the 'facts' of this case - seems that the police can't distinguish between heavy coat and jean jacket, 5 bullets and 9 bullets, jumping over a ticket barrier and using a ticket!

And how exactly are they "stopping these B*stards the best way they can"???

[magicbeatle]

Just remember Oneeyedvic, the next person blown up could be you, or someone you love because the police were too scared to shoot the bomber in case they were hammered by the british public. What would you say then? Have we forgotten the victims of 7/7 were innocent people too. Like i said before, It is a shame that the man shot by police was innocent, but the good of the many must outweigh the good of the few!

[Oneeyedvic]

and you just remember, that the next innocent person shot may be a member of your family.......

[chompu]

 Yes, oneeyedvic, I'm sure the police are going to lie about these two important issues i.e.coat and barrier when there were probably numerous witnesses around. I believe this information came from his family who even before his funeral stated they were considering suing the police. In their position I would not be seeking money but answers.

[magicbeatle]

Oneeyedvic, your just a Do-gooder. I bet you would be against the would-be bombers who got caught this week from getting r*ped and beaten in prison by their fellow prisoners would'nt you? I for one hope they do! You would prefer fair treatment for them would'nt you? Perhaps a Tv in their room and a prayer mat. I have utter contempt for people like you. I suppose you will make out that the new stop and search policy that the police are going to instigate now on Muslims is rascist? You wont think it actually might be because they have to stop and search the most likely candidates, which would be Muslims, with no rascism involved whatsoever! I bet your against the police in general are'nt you? I for one love them!

[Oneeyedvic]

chompu - from the Times on line:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1715340,00.html

I am sure it will all come out at the inquest.

Magicbeatle:

If your definition of a dogooder is someone who doesn't want prisoners to be raped and assaulted in prison, then guilty as charged.

You say you have contempt for me, and so be it. I am not afraid to say that I believe in human rights (everyones - not just terrorists, victims etc).

Much as I love a good debate, personally, with views like yours, I don't believe there is anypoint in continuing. If you honestly think that people should be raped in prison then God help you.

[magicbeatle]

Ok, lets leave it at that then. If you beleive in being so extremely tolerant to murderers rights, then god help all of us!

[Oneeyedvic]

Just to correct you, I believe that when anyway breaks the law they should be punished within the law.

 

Personally, I have no qualms with bringing back the death penalty for certain crimes under certain conditions. This being one of them.

 

I will never ever condone the raping of another person

[magicbeatle]

All I mean is, is that I dont give a cr*p what happens to them in prison. If that makes me a bad person than so be it. I hope they suffer!

[jno]

you are a bad person magicbeatle. Saying 'I don't care what happens to people' is pretty much what the bombers must have said; it is not an attractive approach.

It's starting to look as though the police thought Mr de Menezes was Osman Hussein (or Hussein Osman, nobody seems quite sure), the guy who was actually strolling on to Eurostar past Wanted posters with his photo on them. This would confirm what I posted at the start of this thread about intelligence: the police were killing the wrong man while the right one ambled through immigration at Waterloo.

Nonetheless it's gratifying that all the other suspects have been rounded up without lethal 'split-second decisions' or multiple shootings from behind. Just goes to show it can be done - and good intelligence was the key. I very much hope that these guys do indeed turn out to be the bombers, and that they are put away for ever - but with their human rights resepcted, to show that our way is better than their way.

[magicbeatle]

Sorry jno, but I dont see them as people, I see them as scum. If any of my family had been caught up in the bombings, I would want to buy a blow-torch and some electrodes. But let's leave it at that shall we, our veiws have been expressed and we dont agree. We will just have to accept that we have different ideas on the matter!

[Oneeyedvic]

magicbeatle - and isn't this a nice circular argument

you torture someone becasue you believe that they killed your family. Their relatives then kill you because you did the same. Your relatives then kill their realtives......

..... Of course, along the way a few innocent people get killed which is of course 'unfortunate' and 'collateral damage'.

Welcome ladies and gentlemen to the theatre of war and international terrorism

[magicbeatle]

Look, our justice system does not work, fact! Crime was much lower 40+ years ago before the human rights act started pampering to criminals, another fact! We need the death penalty and other extreme methods to deal with violent criminals. And we need extreme jail terms for lesser crimes like theft. Would you honestly be satisfied for a 5-7 year jail term (With tv, and mod cons) for a person who (hypothetically) killed one of your family members? Can you honestly say you would not want blood if they were caught? No, we live in a society where the victims rights do not count. They are just offered a bit of councilling and expected to just pick themselves up and carry on. We are more concerned about our own sense of morality concerning the treatment of the criminal. I wanted to finish this argument but you carried it on. Ive noticed many times how Do-Gooders always want to shout every one else down, to get the last word. Well, I am not going to be shut up. If you carry on arguing, so will I!

[chompu]

 oneeyedvic Read the article you refered me to earlier. I don't see that it adds anything to the debate. The authors reiterate the same points but do not quote the source. The item I read, said the information came from a female cousin. I seriously doubt the temperature quoted of 17 degrees. That week was particulary warm and this figure is probably the minimum night time temperature. In my city, the last few days have been a little cooler than that week, yet the night temperature is still around 17 or 18. Going to fit a fire alarm. No reputable company would have hired him because, due to his illegal status here, I doubt he has the required accreditation now require of electricians. Why didn't they take him out on the bus? Because at that point,he was a mere suspect.One of probably hundeds the police have followed and stop checked. It was his increasingly suspcious actions at the tube station that led to his tagic death.

[Oneeyedvic]

I would agree with you 100% on parts of your last post - I have already made clear I am for capital punishment (under certain conditions) - I would also support longer prison terms. I have varied views on zero tolerance - if sensibly done it can be very effective - however, there are always extreme cases..

Where I difer is that you obviously have an irrational view of prison - yes, prisoners have tvs and mod cons. They are also locked up in their rooms for 23 hours. They have appaling conditions to live in. Would you like to live in a cell block with a toilet in the corner. Would you like to have the constant threat of bullying with no escape. Would you like to shower with other people? I wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, I don't think prisoners should be treated to a life of luxury, but take off your blinkers and look at the real world.

What I do have issues with, is torture, rape and all the other things you mention in your previous posts.

Try not thinking of the world in black and white and realsie that there are many tones of grey.

Perhaps we should introduce 'thought crimes' and hang the people who think like you   :-0    (feeble attampt at humour - no offense meant)

[magicbeatle]

I dont have an irrational view of prisons. There are lots of criminals out there who think doing bird (as they call it) is easy. They are in and out all of their lives. If prisons were as tough as they used to be years ago they might think twice about going back inside. And there are some people (Paedophiles for instance) who should never be allowed out. You mentioned hanging, well I would hang them, and in public. Fear is a powerful thing, if your afraid of the consequences you will think twice before you act. It may not stop everyone (probably not paedophiles for instance), but it sure as hell would cut the crimerate down. However, the human rights lobby would never allow us to go down the road of extreme punishment.