What Would've Have Happened If Hitler Won Wwii?

[TheSuburbs]

Assuming they had beaten fended off us, Russians and Americans in Europe and had taken over Europe as a whole.

What would have been their next step? With American forces in Europe demolished, not to mention still fighting the Japs, they would not have strength to mount another assault on Europe. Would Germans consolidate their strength and invade America?

if they were to achieve this the whole world would be at their mercy, would Hitler not stop until the whole world would be under German control?

How would they treat their allies in Japan and Italy? would they eventually destroy them too?

[emmie]

the reason that Churchill was not kept on was she was essentially a war leader, and the country needed him or someone like him for that time. His rousing rhetoric and bullish nature would not necessarily have sat well with people once peace was declared. The country needed a government quite different from what Churchill had to offer, and the people were seriously depleted and war weary. I am sure he didn't see it that way, but that is the nature of war and indeed politics.

[emmie]

pretty much what i said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/election_01.shtml

[Zeuhl]

//That's a bit unfair - it was one of Attlee's minsters (I can't remember which one) who immediately saw through the Soviet Union and was a major driving force in the setting up of NATO. //

Quite so itchk you're right

I was attempting to encapsulate the strong pro-soviet emotions immediately post-war that coincided with the country voting in Attlee and adopting socialist ideas (eg Welfare state/NHS) that would have been unthinkable in 1939.

In that atmosphere, Churchill appeared redundant and out of touch with people's aspirations

[Zeuhl]

From em's link:

//In the opening broadcast of the campaign, on 4 June, he warned that the introduction of Socialism into Britain would require '... some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance.' This preposterous allegation, apparently inspired by Friedrich Hayek's book Road to Serfdom (1944), was likely to impress no one except the most loyal and unquestioning of Tories. //

[AB Editor]

Man In The High Castle

PKD to the rescue.

[emmie]

war leaders don't necessarily make good peace leaders. Having said that i don't really see as what came after as in any way communistic in nature, socialist yes, with the advent of the National Health Service, and the changes that came after the war. but i am not sure how many people would have thought this was or could be a politically communist inspired nation.

[emmie]

AB that links to something unrelated to this thread, doesn't it?

[New Judge]

Yes, De Gaulle did spend a large part of the war in the UK. He lived at 41 Birchwood Road, Petts Wood. Having fled France when it was overrun he was firstly accommodated in Central London. Mrs De Gaulle did not like being kept awake in her bunker by the sound of the bombing raining on the ordinary people above, so they moved to Kent. Here Mrs De Gaulle complained about the sound of the bombing (again). As well as this, even though their house was on the opposite side to the railway, Birchwood Road runs parallel to the railway. So she complained about the noise of the trains (some of them bringing the BEF back from their evacuation from Dunkirk). After this they decamped to rural Shropshire and I'm not sure what she found to moan about there.

[AB Editor]

Sorry Em10, corrected. It has been a long day.

Here's a nice map based on MITHC:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Man_In_The_High_Castle_map.PNG

[emmie]

sounds about right NJ, perhaps she would have better off staying in France, like many of her compatriots.

[emmie]

would that be Herr Hitler?

[Zeuhl]

em

If you recall, the original point was that if the US had not entered the european part of the conflict, and the defeat of Hitler had been left to the Soviets, then the Soviet sponsored groups in western mainland europe were in waiting to seize power.

In that scenario, a heightened sense of gratitude and comradeship for the Soviets, and existing UK Socialist and Communist parties would there have been a local movement (with Moscow's support) to move closer politically to the rest of Europe?

[jake-the-peg]

The Dolittle raid was a suicide mission

The plan called for them to bomb military targets in Japan, and to continue westward to land in China—landing a medium bomber on the Hornet was impossible. All the aircraft involved in the bombing were lost and 11 crewmen were either killed or captured—with three of the captured men executed by the Japanese Army in China. One of the B-25s landed in the Soviet Union at Vladivostok, where it was confiscated and its crew interned for more than a year. Thirteen entire crews, and all but one crewman of a 14th, returned either to the United States or to American forces.

From Wikipedia


Consider if he Enol Gay raid had ended like that - how many volunteers for Nagasaki?

Would it not have encouraged the Japanese to fight on? The US only had so man Atomic bombs

I don't think it's a "end of" situation

[emmie]

The Americans would never have allowed Germans to get over the Atlantic, it would have taken a colossal German force and they didn't have that many to fight on that scale.
I also don't think that we would have made a pact with Russia. Had Germany won the war and set foot in Britain, that may well have been the end for us, but not the USA.

[Zacs-Master]

I'd just, rather patronisingly, like to congratulate everyone on a very interesting thread, I find WWII the most fascinating period of history mainly because we became a different nation for a time and one that I'm extremely proud of. I have learnt many interesting facts through this thread, so thanks.

[Zeuhl]

em

//The Americans would never have allowed Germans to get over the Atlantic//

Who said they would? I must have missed that

//I also don't think that we would have made a pact with Russia. //

Err ... we did.

We signed a treaty with USSR after the 1941 invasion to ratify the alliance against the Nazis. Amongst other things it agreed post war borders between USSR and Poland.

We mounted a joint invasion of Iran (The Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran) to secure the oil fields and our Arctic convoys transported military supplies. Famously of course, Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt and their staffs liaised on strategy.

In 1945, with armies jointly occupying Berlin, USA and GB agreed with Stalin that the Soviets could have free rein East of Berlin provided they reined back their Communist organisations in France, Italy and the Low Countries.

[DTCwordfan]

There's an old book (1963) that speculates on this, as to the German invasion and occupation of the States. Philip Dick - The Man in the High Castle.

Well worth a read as it implies an implosion in power between Joseph Goebbels, Reinhard Heydrich, and Hermann Göring, once Hitler died.

[jno]

another what-if novel that's just been published

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dominion-C-J-Sansom/dp/0230744168

Zeuhl, remember pro-Soviet propaganda had been going on during the war, as they were Britain's ally. I don't know that voting Churchill out after the war was anything to do with it, though; there was just a strong feeling that since all classes had equally fought the war, all classes ought equally to benefit from the peace.

The idea of an NHS was around before that, though

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/nhs/5149.shtml

It appears that the build-up to the war actually delayed health reform

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_National_Health_Service_%28England%29#Birth_of_the_National_Health_Service

[Zeuhl]

^That's interesting jno
that health reforms were already being laid out pre war

though as you say, the unity under duress of the war certainly moved it on.

I think that did combine with a rose-tinted view of Uncle Joe and the 'brave comrades' who did so much (and sacrificed so much) to bring down Nazism. It is a pity that so much of the optimism and sense of international brotherhood was dishonoured by the political realities.

[TheSuburbs]

Brilliant and really interesting thread!

Thank you all!