ChatterBank1 min ago
Could Hiring Too Many Foreign Doctors 'puts Lives At Risk'?
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Much has been said in defence of mass immigration in this country, when one criticises the problem of mass immigration, the usual cry that comes up is "how could our NHS survive without immigration?
Well here is the other side of the coin, whereas many immigrant doctors and nurses do sterling work, there are many who are obviously bringing the NHS down, perhaps the regular stories one hears of problem hospitals up and down the country, the influx of foreign medical staff could be one reason?
Much has been said in defence of mass immigration in this country, when one criticises the problem of mass immigration, the usual cry that comes up is "how could our NHS survive without immigration?
Well here is the other side of the coin, whereas many immigrant doctors and nurses do sterling work, there are many who are obviously bringing the NHS down, perhaps the regular stories one hears of problem hospitals up and down the country, the influx of foreign medical staff could be one reason?
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sorry but i reiterate, like training pilots, its a small fortune which ever way you look at it, seven years of medical school, and that isn't over even then, specialist fields and so forth. I cannot for the life of me see why you train them and they go off, thus benefiting another countries people, madness. At least 5 years practising medicine in UK, what is so wrong with that.
emmie
\\\\\so the country he/she goes to gets all the benefits, whilst we are left with the bill and the possible second rate physician in their place.\\\
I agree entirely.
However better pay is not the main reason for doctors emigrating...see my posts above.....second rate foreign doctors can get a high rate of pay AND security with excellent retirement schemes in the NHS.
In the 50's 60.s there was emigration of Drs to USA and Australia where the salaries were much higher and this was countered by the Governments of the time "lining their pockets with gold", and this indeed did halt emigration for a couple of decades.
However, with salaries of doctors in the NHS unsustainable and unreasonably elevated, there is now an explosion of emigration once again.
So.......pay, salary and opportunity is not the major factor for emigration.
So, what is?
All my comments are backed up by my own experiences and those of colleagues on the "front line". No doubt that there will be statistics and studies to indicate otherwise......but the "boys" in the NHS hospitals are not happy.
\\\\\so the country he/she goes to gets all the benefits, whilst we are left with the bill and the possible second rate physician in their place.\\\
I agree entirely.
However better pay is not the main reason for doctors emigrating...see my posts above.....second rate foreign doctors can get a high rate of pay AND security with excellent retirement schemes in the NHS.
In the 50's 60.s there was emigration of Drs to USA and Australia where the salaries were much higher and this was countered by the Governments of the time "lining their pockets with gold", and this indeed did halt emigration for a couple of decades.
However, with salaries of doctors in the NHS unsustainable and unreasonably elevated, there is now an explosion of emigration once again.
So.......pay, salary and opportunity is not the major factor for emigration.
So, what is?
All my comments are backed up by my own experiences and those of colleagues on the "front line". No doubt that there will be statistics and studies to indicate otherwise......but the "boys" in the NHS hospitals are not happy.
@Emmie - How many "go off" to foreign fields? Its a risk we take as a country. I think the idea that we try and get them to sign restrictive contracts in an effort to handcuff them to the UK ludicrous. It goes against the spirit of democracy and very much goes against the principle of free movement of people and goods.
The UK runs this risk, just as any other developed country does. If we do not even charge our own private health industry in the UK for the cost of training, how do we enforce anything more draconian?
And all of this, all of this restriction on movement etc is all because of the fluency in the english language? Nah, does not work.
The UK runs this risk, just as any other developed country does. If we do not even charge our own private health industry in the UK for the cost of training, how do we enforce anything more draconian?
And all of this, all of this restriction on movement etc is all because of the fluency in the english language? Nah, does not work.
emmie, look at your argument from the other side. how do you think 'other countries ' feel when their doctors come over here to work in the NHS?
The cost of training for a 'poor country' is relatively far higher than the cost to the UK of training a doctor , yet the home country gets no benefit from its investment.
The cost of training for a 'poor country' is relatively far higher than the cost to the UK of training a doctor , yet the home country gets no benefit from its investment.
Oh dear English tests again.
The old view was that testing language skills was a well-used bar to free movement of labour within the EU
and so after a very long time (twenty yr) PLAB was stopped except for those doctors outside the EU. Obviously differing rules for composites (Dutch doctor who had a Zambian degree - or a Malian doctor with a French medical degree)
It was always possible for employers to test language
but none of the trusts ever did.
It was also possible for trust to band together and say - no employment without such and such a lest
but the regulator couldnt
and Now it says it can - but I am not sure if that is correct.
The GMC gets its law wrong on a regular basis.
The old view was that testing language skills was a well-used bar to free movement of labour within the EU
and so after a very long time (twenty yr) PLAB was stopped except for those doctors outside the EU. Obviously differing rules for composites (Dutch doctor who had a Zambian degree - or a Malian doctor with a French medical degree)
It was always possible for employers to test language
but none of the trusts ever did.
It was also possible for trust to band together and say - no employment without such and such a lest
but the regulator couldnt
and Now it says it can - but I am not sure if that is correct.
The GMC gets its law wrong on a regular basis.
Eddie
\\\\\\The cost of training for a 'poor country' is relatively far higher than the cost to the UK of training a doctor , yet the home country gets no benefit from its investment.\\\\
Your point is well taken, however, the NHS provides a medium for foreign doctors to gain post graduate qualifications,experience, make their mistakes on NHS patients, then return to their country of origin as the "finished article."
\\\\\\The cost of training for a 'poor country' is relatively far higher than the cost to the UK of training a doctor , yet the home country gets no benefit from its investment.\\\\
Your point is well taken, however, the NHS provides a medium for foreign doctors to gain post graduate qualifications,experience, make their mistakes on NHS patients, then return to their country of origin as the "finished article."
Sqad, good point .
To go back to the question , the stories of problem hospitals have far more to do with the need to fill quotas, meet targets and cut costs as set by politicians and managers than the origin of the staff, remember it is not just doctors who come from overseas, many nurses and support staff do as well
To go back to the question , the stories of problem hospitals have far more to do with the need to fill quotas, meet targets and cut costs as set by politicians and managers than the origin of the staff, remember it is not just doctors who come from overseas, many nurses and support staff do as well
@Sqad Sooo cynical :) Its a fair point, but how significant is it really?
I haven't seen any figures for how many return, having taken advantage of our system to gain experience and butcher all those NHS patients.Is it a significant proportion of the overall total?
I mean your fundamental point remains true even of native born graduates - they will be making their mistakes on NHS patients too. And in a very few cases they will end up being Consultants that continue to make some fairly grevious errors, too.
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Fortunately, the number is small.
We should not forget in all this discussion that we are only talking doctors here - I think it equally important that other professions should have a similar basic requirement for english language, Nursing for example.
I was quite surprised to read that, due to a supposed shortage of nurses in the UK, at least one hospital was going out of its way to recruit nursing staff from Portugal.
I haven't seen any figures for how many return, having taken advantage of our system to gain experience and butcher all those NHS patients.Is it a significant proportion of the overall total?
I mean your fundamental point remains true even of native born graduates - they will be making their mistakes on NHS patients too. And in a very few cases they will end up being Consultants that continue to make some fairly grevious errors, too.
http://
Fortunately, the number is small.
We should not forget in all this discussion that we are only talking doctors here - I think it equally important that other professions should have a similar basic requirement for english language, Nursing for example.
I was quite surprised to read that, due to a supposed shortage of nurses in the UK, at least one hospital was going out of its way to recruit nursing staff from Portugal.
LazyGUn
\\\\ and butcher all those NHS patients.Is it a significant proportion of the overall total? \\\
at what "proportion" does "butchering" become "significant?"
To put the other side of the coin, I have had superb junior staff, particularly from Singapore and Australia who unfortunately for the NHS chose to go back to their country of origin.
\\\\ and butcher all those NHS patients.Is it a significant proportion of the overall total? \\\
at what "proportion" does "butchering" become "significant?"
To put the other side of the coin, I have had superb junior staff, particularly from Singapore and Australia who unfortunately for the NHS chose to go back to their country of origin.
@Sqad - The significance relates to the risk, obviously and always. We have a suggestion that hiring foreign doctors puts patients at risk, from the OP. We additional comments suggesting that we should be shackling students within our own medical system to stop them working anywhere else until they have repaid the cost of their training.
The basic premise is incorrect. Hiring foreign doctors only represents a risk if you think their competency is in question, either due to poor training or because they are basically individuals not fit for purpose, OR if their comprehension and ability to express themselves in the English Language is so poor that it puts patients health and well being and peace of mind at risk.
No one can deny there are specific issues within the NHS with a shortage of Consultants throughout the system but most especially within A&E and Obs/Gynae. So the education and training system requires a shakeup.
There is also the problem of language and competency of foreign nationals working within the NHS, as typified by Dr. Urbani. But actually Urbani was hired by the private company running the out of hours GP service against the recommendation of their own Vettor who raised questions over his competence particularly for a locum GP and over his language.
So what we need are better systems of regulation and vetting, not a blanket ban on any foreign nationals working within the NHS and conscription and restricted term contracts for UK nationals wishing to study medicine.
The basic premise is incorrect. Hiring foreign doctors only represents a risk if you think their competency is in question, either due to poor training or because they are basically individuals not fit for purpose, OR if their comprehension and ability to express themselves in the English Language is so poor that it puts patients health and well being and peace of mind at risk.
No one can deny there are specific issues within the NHS with a shortage of Consultants throughout the system but most especially within A&E and Obs/Gynae. So the education and training system requires a shakeup.
There is also the problem of language and competency of foreign nationals working within the NHS, as typified by Dr. Urbani. But actually Urbani was hired by the private company running the out of hours GP service against the recommendation of their own Vettor who raised questions over his competence particularly for a locum GP and over his language.
So what we need are better systems of regulation and vetting, not a blanket ban on any foreign nationals working within the NHS and conscription and restricted term contracts for UK nationals wishing to study medicine.
I agree with sqad that NHS consultants are are under stress as never before. They are under the control of managers who can make life miserable for them in many ways ranging from delaying, say, a replacement secretary, to suspending them, referring them to the GMC, with no redress for groundless suspension/referral.
"You are no longer the servant of the people who come to you for help or of the population from which they come, or answerable to the ideals of your profession. Your immediate loyalty is to a body whose primary oath is "First Balance Your Books" or First Meet Your Targets" or "First Satisfy Your Shareholders"
Stewart Player. Colin Leys
No.2 son is in Australia where as a registrar he gets paid more than his brother who is a NHS consultant, so better pay does come into it , but a much better working environment is perhaps a more important factor in UK medical emigration.
I disagree that in this country that doctors'salaries are "unreasonably elevated" and "unsustainable".
The facts show that UK specialists earn pretty much close to the OECD average - 2.6 times the average wage. I see that in Ireland they earn 4.5 times the average wage.
http://
My views are also based on my own experiences - anecdotal and otherwise..
"You are no longer the servant of the people who come to you for help or of the population from which they come, or answerable to the ideals of your profession. Your immediate loyalty is to a body whose primary oath is "First Balance Your Books" or First Meet Your Targets" or "First Satisfy Your Shareholders"
Stewart Player. Colin Leys
No.2 son is in Australia where as a registrar he gets paid more than his brother who is a NHS consultant, so better pay does come into it , but a much better working environment is perhaps a more important factor in UK medical emigration.
I disagree that in this country that doctors'salaries are "unreasonably elevated" and "unsustainable".
The facts show that UK specialists earn pretty much close to the OECD average - 2.6 times the average wage. I see that in Ireland they earn 4.5 times the average wage.
http://
My views are also based on my own experiences - anecdotal and otherwise..
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