ChatterBank1 min ago
Listener Crossword No 4289 Popularity Contest By Tibea
37 Answers
RofL!! The two editors are pulling our whatnots here in this joyous romp! Setters beware - we now know what they want from us. Anyhow, great fun if something of a sprint from start to finish. Many thanks to Tibea. And all weekend for the sunshine and the golf....
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The penny dropped with 25d shortly after posting my message, and now, prompted by tilbee's "kick yourself" I see 31. In general I latch on to that type of clue immediately or only after a very long time. I had no trouble quickly identifying the others of its type.
Thanks for offer help, olichant, but not needed.
Thanks for offer help, olichant, but not needed.
Popularity contest indeed. Tibea appear to have made a statement with their phrase, and the inner circlers (almost by definition anyone solving by Saturday evening - so all contributors her so far) may well be in the minority. Should they be catered for?
Tibea's problem is of course similar to the BBC's dilemma; good ratings or too highbrow? A variety, such as has indeed be the case over that last few years, is the answer, but is the average about to become easier to increase more participation?
Tibea's problem is of course similar to the BBC's dilemma; good ratings or too highbrow? A variety, such as has indeed be the case over that last few years, is the answer, but is the average about to become easier to increase more participation?
If this does become a sign of things to come, then I heartily recommend anyone who reads this thread who is not already aware to consider a subscription to Magpie, which consistently provides the most challenging thematic crosswords each month.
Each month there are six thematic puzzles, one of which is a numerical. These are graded A to E. This would certainly have been graded an A. The typical Listener would warrant a C, with the recent Radix puzzle being a D. There are always a small number of E grade puzzles to challenge the more determined each year.
Each month there are six thematic puzzles, one of which is a numerical. These are graded A to E. This would certainly have been graded an A. The typical Listener would warrant a C, with the recent Radix puzzle being a D. There are always a small number of E grade puzzles to challenge the more determined each year.
I'm in two minds about this one: anything that encourages greater participation has to be a Good Thing, but I don't want the weekly tussle to be reduced routinely to a solve as fast as this one was. Mind you, there were plenty of amusing touches to enjoy.
But am I alone in wondering why the phrase had to be written beneath the grid? Only two of the 12 thematic lights were completely unchless and therefore solvable without needing to identify the missing letter, but the phrase was hardly going to remain a mystery because of that.
Making solvers jump through entirely pointless hoops, in puzzles at this level, is something that's far too common!
But am I alone in wondering why the phrase had to be written beneath the grid? Only two of the 12 thematic lights were completely unchless and therefore solvable without needing to identify the missing letter, but the phrase was hardly going to remain a mystery because of that.
Making solvers jump through entirely pointless hoops, in puzzles at this level, is something that's far too common!
I agree with UglyUncle that writing the phrase below the grid was rather pointless.
Re the string of undemanding puzzles, and tilbee's recommendation of Magpie, I am reminded of the situation a few years back when the Listener suddenly became rather easy (I remember completing one puzzle in little over half an hour). There was a lot of dissatisfaction expressed on The Crossword Centre's Message Board, and as a consequence the Magpie editors adjusted their difficulty rating, so that B, not C, became the level of difficulty of a typical Listener. I hope we are not headed in that direction now.
It's unfortunate for the setter. Had this puzzle followed Radix there might have been few if any complaints, but after two easy puzzle people were expecting more.
Re the string of undemanding puzzles, and tilbee's recommendation of Magpie, I am reminded of the situation a few years back when the Listener suddenly became rather easy (I remember completing one puzzle in little over half an hour). There was a lot of dissatisfaction expressed on The Crossword Centre's Message Board, and as a consequence the Magpie editors adjusted their difficulty rating, so that B, not C, became the level of difficulty of a typical Listener. I hope we are not headed in that direction now.
It's unfortunate for the setter. Had this puzzle followed Radix there might have been few if any complaints, but after two easy puzzle people were expecting more.
This was an enjoyable and well set crossword - not surprising given the setters! On the subject of easy/hard crosswords with a number of exceptions crosswords submitted are vetted and then published in the order they were received. An exceptions being for example date related. So the bunching of eash and difficult is pretty much arbitrary.
I think it would be tough to institute a different policy for publication as it would cause some anxiety with setters! Also it is important I think to have variety both to encourage new setters and solvers to have a go.
I think it would be tough to institute a different policy for publication as it would cause some anxiety with setters! Also it is important I think to have variety both to encourage new setters and solvers to have a go.
In one of my fastest Listener completions ever, having identified and solved the 12 thematic clues by letter count, the rest was completed with little real pause for thought, apart from some geographical ignorance (easily overcome by Google) in 1 down, and some difficulty in locating 40 across in Chambers. It was OK, but was it amusing, challenging, infuriating, laborious, educational and satisfying to complete? Not really. Did I, while trying to solve it, discuss the fiendishness of the cluing or the amazing nature of the theme and construction with my wife? No, I didn’t. So, I personally feel some disquiet about this puzzle, the preamble, the title, and the apparent preoccupations of the editors.
Let me say at the outset of my rant, that I do not object to having the occasional easier puzzle to tackle as a concept per se. However, if the editors are concerned by the number of entries, successful or otherwise, then I hope that this does not lead to an editorial decision to publish more puzzles with 4289’s level of difficulty. I’m hoping that some of the preamble was “tongue in cheek”, but I’m worried that it was all meant as a manifesto. I really fear that the whole thing was a long-winded way of saying “We want more people to do these puzzles, so we’re going to make them easier in general.” If, in the future, I will be able to solve the Listener in a couple of hours, I will no longer have an excuse not to be doing more housework.
My thesis is this. What is wrong with something being uncommon, egregious, or only for the initiated? Is it not the hidden, cryptic nature of all puzzles which issues a challenge to the potential solver, which will motivate him or her to unravel the complexities? It was certainly one of the reasons I started to tackle these puzzles. What is wrong with difficulty, as an attractive feature of challenge? K2 or Catbells? It all depends on whether you are Reinhold Messner or me. Where have the editors got hold of the idea that uninitiated solvers are “belittled” by this stuff? I’m sure that for most regular solvers of the Listener, its attraction is its difficulty, and, yes, its occasional obscurity. Without the Listener I would never have heard of Euler and his bridge-crossing problem or Klein and his bottle or the engine number of “The Flying Scotsman”. I would never have gone into the chapel of Trinity College Cambridge to look at the tombs or given a second thought to Hedy Lamarr or the stations on the Glasgow underground. Having said all that, next week’s will probably be an absolute stinker
Let me say at the outset of my rant, that I do not object to having the occasional easier puzzle to tackle as a concept per se. However, if the editors are concerned by the number of entries, successful or otherwise, then I hope that this does not lead to an editorial decision to publish more puzzles with 4289’s level of difficulty. I’m hoping that some of the preamble was “tongue in cheek”, but I’m worried that it was all meant as a manifesto. I really fear that the whole thing was a long-winded way of saying “We want more people to do these puzzles, so we’re going to make them easier in general.” If, in the future, I will be able to solve the Listener in a couple of hours, I will no longer have an excuse not to be doing more housework.
My thesis is this. What is wrong with something being uncommon, egregious, or only for the initiated? Is it not the hidden, cryptic nature of all puzzles which issues a challenge to the potential solver, which will motivate him or her to unravel the complexities? It was certainly one of the reasons I started to tackle these puzzles. What is wrong with difficulty, as an attractive feature of challenge? K2 or Catbells? It all depends on whether you are Reinhold Messner or me. Where have the editors got hold of the idea that uninitiated solvers are “belittled” by this stuff? I’m sure that for most regular solvers of the Listener, its attraction is its difficulty, and, yes, its occasional obscurity. Without the Listener I would never have heard of Euler and his bridge-crossing problem or Klein and his bottle or the engine number of “The Flying Scotsman”. I would never have gone into the chapel of Trinity College Cambridge to look at the tombs or given a second thought to Hedy Lamarr or the stations on the Glasgow underground. Having said all that, next week’s will probably be an absolute stinker
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