ChatterBank8 mins ago
Omni-Shambles On Rails !
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Just a few months after the Government announced this ambitious modernisation of our national railway structure, its now being delayed and/or cut back. It was announced before the Election, although they must have known it was too ambitious then.
This stinks of making misleading claims and promises in the run-up to the Election to me.
Just a few months after the Government announced this ambitious modernisation of our national railway structure, its now being delayed and/or cut back. It was announced before the Election, although they must have known it was too ambitious then.
This stinks of making misleading claims and promises in the run-up to the Election to me.
Answers
“…making misleading claims and promises in the run-up to the Election” What an outrageous accusation! Wash your mouth out, Mikey :-) “It's similar to the way Eurostar can't travel on BR track. “ That’s not quite correct, marshwarble. When Eurostar services were first introduced in 1993 the only “new build” this side of the Channel to...
19:08 Thu 25th Jun 2015
“…making misleading claims and promises in the run-up to the Election”
What an outrageous accusation! Wash your mouth out, Mikey :-)
“It's similar to the way Eurostar can't travel on BR track. “
That’s not quite correct, marshwarble.
When Eurostar services were first introduced in 1993 the only “new build” this side of the Channel to accommodate the service was “Waterloo International” station (in essence four new long platforms built alongside the existing Waterloo terminus) and a short chord linking the Waterloo to Clapham Junction line with the Victoria to Bromley South line. The new service ran from Waterloo, via this chord, to Bromley South then via either Swanley or Orpington to Sevenoaks, Tonbridge and Ashford International. Shortly beyond there the new line to the Chunnel began. All of the route to Ashford (apart from the new “chord” between Waterloo and Brixton) was existing “legacy” track with third rail 750v DC power. Furthermore, the Eurostar services shared these tracks with an intensive commuter service between London, the Medway Towns, Sevenoaks, Maidstone and Ashford. This made for extreme “pathing” difficulties in Eurostar’s early days and it was not unusual to see a Paris or Brussels train stuck behind an all stops Victoria to Orpington service.
In 2003 part one of the “HS1” route opened from the tunnel to Fawkham Junction, just north east of Swanley. From then Eurostars still began from Waterloo and used the old tracks via Bromley and Swanley before joining HS1. In 2007 the final part of HS1 opened from Fawkham Junction to St Pancras and Eurostar services now use this route in its entirety.
The Class 373 Eurostar sets are extremely complicated, having to cope with 750v DC third rail supply, 25Kv Ac overhead supply (on HS1, in the tunnel and in France) and 3Kv overhead supply (in Belgium). Most sets have now had their third-rail “shoes” removed but they are still capable of running on Network Rail’s tracks with 25Kv overhead supply. There were plans to run through services from the north of England to the Continent using shortened Eurostar sets but these never materialised.
HS2 is to have dedicated trains capable only of running on that route and no through services to other routes (including HS1 and the Continent) are planned. Unless plans change it will be an isolated railway.
What an outrageous accusation! Wash your mouth out, Mikey :-)
“It's similar to the way Eurostar can't travel on BR track. “
That’s not quite correct, marshwarble.
When Eurostar services were first introduced in 1993 the only “new build” this side of the Channel to accommodate the service was “Waterloo International” station (in essence four new long platforms built alongside the existing Waterloo terminus) and a short chord linking the Waterloo to Clapham Junction line with the Victoria to Bromley South line. The new service ran from Waterloo, via this chord, to Bromley South then via either Swanley or Orpington to Sevenoaks, Tonbridge and Ashford International. Shortly beyond there the new line to the Chunnel began. All of the route to Ashford (apart from the new “chord” between Waterloo and Brixton) was existing “legacy” track with third rail 750v DC power. Furthermore, the Eurostar services shared these tracks with an intensive commuter service between London, the Medway Towns, Sevenoaks, Maidstone and Ashford. This made for extreme “pathing” difficulties in Eurostar’s early days and it was not unusual to see a Paris or Brussels train stuck behind an all stops Victoria to Orpington service.
In 2003 part one of the “HS1” route opened from the tunnel to Fawkham Junction, just north east of Swanley. From then Eurostars still began from Waterloo and used the old tracks via Bromley and Swanley before joining HS1. In 2007 the final part of HS1 opened from Fawkham Junction to St Pancras and Eurostar services now use this route in its entirety.
The Class 373 Eurostar sets are extremely complicated, having to cope with 750v DC third rail supply, 25Kv Ac overhead supply (on HS1, in the tunnel and in France) and 3Kv overhead supply (in Belgium). Most sets have now had their third-rail “shoes” removed but they are still capable of running on Network Rail’s tracks with 25Kv overhead supply. There were plans to run through services from the north of England to the Continent using shortened Eurostar sets but these never materialised.
HS2 is to have dedicated trains capable only of running on that route and no through services to other routes (including HS1 and the Continent) are planned. Unless plans change it will be an isolated railway.
Of course there was a perfectly good Trans-Pennine electrified route from Manchester to Sheffield via the Woodhead Tunnel. Despite having the original 1847 tunnels replaced in 1954 to accommodate the line's electrification it was closed to passengers in 1970 and to freight in 1981.
Reopening the route is not now feasible. The original twin tunnels were acquired by the National Grid when they were replaced in 1954 (by which time they had become damaged by a hundred years of steam and soot) and they used them to carry high votage cables. In 2012 the cables were transferred to the new twin track tunnel making all three tunnels now unsuitable for a railway.
Reopening the route is not now feasible. The original twin tunnels were acquired by the National Grid when they were replaced in 1954 (by which time they had become damaged by a hundred years of steam and soot) and they used them to carry high votage cables. In 2012 the cables were transferred to the new twin track tunnel making all three tunnels now unsuitable for a railway.
Even the Daily Mail are not impressed...
// The real scandal is that the slide into chaos of the Government’s promised £38.5billion investment programme must have been known to civil servants and the Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin before the country went to the polls on May 7, but not a word crossed anyone’s lips. //
// The real scandal is that the slide into chaos of the Government’s promised £38.5billion investment programme must have been known to civil servants and the Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin before the country went to the polls on May 7, but not a word crossed anyone’s lips. //
New Judge,
The Woodhead route would not be suitable for high speed passenger trains . The section from Manchester to Hadfield could not be straightened and goes through a bottleneck at Guide Bridge. The viaduct at Dinting is weak and the Longendale Nature trail now occupies several miles of former track on the Manchester side of the tunnel.
The decision to axe the Woodhead route was always very perplexing.
The Woodhead route would not be suitable for high speed passenger trains . The section from Manchester to Hadfield could not be straightened and goes through a bottleneck at Guide Bridge. The viaduct at Dinting is weak and the Longendale Nature trail now occupies several miles of former track on the Manchester side of the tunnel.
The decision to axe the Woodhead route was always very perplexing.
//The decision to axe the Woodhead route was always very perplexing. //
not really gromit. there was only enough passenger traffic between manchester and sheffield to support one route, and the hope valley line had the bigger catchment area for potential passengers.
by 1981 the original 1854 woodhead line electrification equipment was life expired, plus the coal traffic that had kept the route open had dwindled because of pit closures, or switching it to the more convenient M62. there was no case to retain the line.
not really gromit. there was only enough passenger traffic between manchester and sheffield to support one route, and the hope valley line had the bigger catchment area for potential passengers.
by 1981 the original 1854 woodhead line electrification equipment was life expired, plus the coal traffic that had kept the route open had dwindled because of pit closures, or switching it to the more convenient M62. there was no case to retain the line.
Thanks Mikey.
Yes quite agree with what's been said about Woodhead. However, whilst unsuitable for a high speed route, with some upgrades it would have made a useful addition to trans-Pennine infrastructure. The old 1500v dc system would have been easy to convert to 25Kv AC (it was done on the Liverpool Street to Shenfield/Southend/Chelmsford route with very little disruption). But it's all history.
Yes quite agree with what's been said about Woodhead. However, whilst unsuitable for a high speed route, with some upgrades it would have made a useful addition to trans-Pennine infrastructure. The old 1500v dc system would have been easy to convert to 25Kv AC (it was done on the Liverpool Street to Shenfield/Southend/Chelmsford route with very little disruption). But it's all history.
//HS2 is to have dedicated trains capable only of running on that route and no through services to other routes (including HS1 and the Continent) are planned.//
assuming this goes ahead at all (and there's no guarantee), at least some the trains running on the route of HS2 will need to be "classic compatible" to provide services beyond the high speed lines - otherwise passengers will be forced to change trains at Curzon Street (stage 1), or Leeds/Manchester (stage 2).
assuming this goes ahead at all (and there's no guarantee), at least some the trains running on the route of HS2 will need to be "classic compatible" to provide services beyond the high speed lines - otherwise passengers will be forced to change trains at Curzon Street (stage 1), or Leeds/Manchester (stage 2).
I haven't posted a Steve Bell cartoon on AB for quite a while now, but the one today seems relevant !
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You may well be correct, mush.
Every time I read about HS2 proposals they have changed. The last I heard was that there was unlikely tobe any interconnection at the southern end (it would involve complete re-engineering of the North London Line - a project deemed a "Bridge too Far" when the services from the north to the Continent were considered). i read a month or two ago that interconnection in the north was in jepardy because HS2 stock is to be built to continental HS loading gauge meaning severe restrictions (without extensive re-engineering) on their use on classic lines.
I must say it makes no sense at all to construct HS2 as an isolated railway but common sense sometimes fails to rear its ugly head in politicians' vanity projects!
Every time I read about HS2 proposals they have changed. The last I heard was that there was unlikely tobe any interconnection at the southern end (it would involve complete re-engineering of the North London Line - a project deemed a "Bridge too Far" when the services from the north to the Continent were considered). i read a month or two ago that interconnection in the north was in jepardy because HS2 stock is to be built to continental HS loading gauge meaning severe restrictions (without extensive re-engineering) on their use on classic lines.
I must say it makes no sense at all to construct HS2 as an isolated railway but common sense sometimes fails to rear its ugly head in politicians' vanity projects!
the report by the lords economic affairs committee in march which claimed there was no case for HS2 clearly hasn't travelled from Euston recently
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the west coast upgrade - which still isn't finished btw - was meant to be futureproof until 2020 or longer but is already full up. virgin trains to birmingham and manchester are every 20mn but are full all day. the trains have been extended to 11 cars but are still full. the latest initiative is to convert one of the 4 1st class coaches to standard; when that's full the next move will be to remove the shop and leave the hapless traveller with no refreshment facilities (trolleys don't cut it - they never have anything to sell). and after that, when the trains are still full......
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the west coast upgrade - which still isn't finished btw - was meant to be futureproof until 2020 or longer but is already full up. virgin trains to birmingham and manchester are every 20mn but are full all day. the trains have been extended to 11 cars but are still full. the latest initiative is to convert one of the 4 1st class coaches to standard; when that's full the next move will be to remove the shop and leave the hapless traveller with no refreshment facilities (trolleys don't cut it - they never have anything to sell). and after that, when the trains are still full......
Mush...I rarely travel by train, being lucky that I almost never have to use public transport. But millions of people do in Britain, every day, and you paint a very disheartening picture of their daily commute. Sounds like a shambles to me !
One thing I have never really understood is about the no-seats business on trains. Buses and coaches are used extensively in Britain, and have very strict rules on standing room....none at all on coaches and very limited on local buses. I have used planes quite a lot in my lifetime and have never seen anybody having to catch hold of a leather strap and stand for the whole journey.
And yet train operators can get away with charging people a small fortune for a ticket, without having any obligation to provide them with a safe and comfortable seat !
On my last train trip to London and back. because the train started in Swansea, I was able to have a seat. But when that train got to Bristol Parkway, 100's of extra people got on and most of them had to stand or sit on the floor. The person sitting next to me explained that most of these Bristol based passengers did this every day !
On the return journey, it was my turn to have to stand, but managed to get a seat from Bristol Parkway to home.
How the train companies can charge eye-wateringly huge sums of money for peoples season tickets, and then expect people to stand for hours every day is beyond me.
One thing I have never really understood is about the no-seats business on trains. Buses and coaches are used extensively in Britain, and have very strict rules on standing room....none at all on coaches and very limited on local buses. I have used planes quite a lot in my lifetime and have never seen anybody having to catch hold of a leather strap and stand for the whole journey.
And yet train operators can get away with charging people a small fortune for a ticket, without having any obligation to provide them with a safe and comfortable seat !
On my last train trip to London and back. because the train started in Swansea, I was able to have a seat. But when that train got to Bristol Parkway, 100's of extra people got on and most of them had to stand or sit on the floor. The person sitting next to me explained that most of these Bristol based passengers did this every day !
On the return journey, it was my turn to have to stand, but managed to get a seat from Bristol Parkway to home.
How the train companies can charge eye-wateringly huge sums of money for peoples season tickets, and then expect people to stand for hours every day is beyond me.
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