Primary Schools (Conditions Of Entry)

[jd_1984]

So we have had our first acknowledgement letter from one of the 3 primary schools we shortlisted for the little man for September.
This is a Church Of England School (my former school and the best in the area according to OFSTED). We would love to see him there but one big draw back - we do not atend church regularly. One condition, it appears is that you have to confirm "regular worship" and the details of the church that you attend.
We dont want to be dishonest. However, what is everyones thoughts on us attending church from now on (in an attempt to get him into the better school) ? Is this immoral? Would it be too late/too obviuos if we started attending now? Is it just parents trying their best to get the better school? Unfortunately the fact that my dad, myself and my younger brother attended this school means nothing (interestingly enough MY mother attended church on the run up to us starting school to get us in!)
There are other good schools he can go to without religious affiliation.
The thing is though, do OFSTED take into consideration what religion the school follows or is it just how "good" the school is. Therefore is it fair that the best school in our area is a CofE school and therefore parents have to be of that faith or pretend they are to get into the better school.
Apparently if there is spaces after the initial sift, it then goes on distance (radius) of applicants address, we are 2 miles away so our chances are fair/middle.

[jd_1984]

I am unsure what, if any, linkage there is between having a compulsary religious aspect to primary education and an excellent OFSTED report? I dont know the criteria that schools are rated by. Like you say, my personal knowledge of the school is a big factor in us wanting him to go.

[rockyracoon]

MadMen
I am absolutely gutted. Just received an email saying my son hasn't got into the secondary school we'd requested.

He's been offered the school closest to our house, which is crap. :-((((



MM, that's gutting, stick an appeal in, you never know.

[ichkeria]

"I dont know the criteria that schools are rated by."

That's why I'd strongly suggest reading the report. Not a very exciting prospect I agree and we certainly never bothered, but it should provide some answers.

[MadMen]

RR, I've been on the phone for the past hour, but not really getting anywhere as I have to wait for the letter to come through.
I've been told there's "not much point" in appealing, but I can request another school. There's another one near to us, which is good and I know a few of his friends are going there, but I've just been told that it's full, so I'll to request to go on the waiting list. Only trouble with that though, is you're kind of left in limbo, as your first offer gets withdrawn. Major headache. He's going to be so upset :-(

[Barmaid]

Madmen, there is a point to appealing. I've seen kids win appeals because the schools are so damn lazy they just run a case on the basis "the school is full" rather than showing the legal test of prejudice. Parents might have terrible reasons for appealling, but if the school cannot demonstrate prejudice, they must win. It's a two stage test. If you want more info, post another thread. Act quick though, you don't have long.

[Duncer]

"Here in Scotland we don't have all this palaver. You go to the primary school in your local catchment area unless your parents have enough dosh for you to go private."

I think you'll find we do maggie.

[MadMen]

It's a faith school and because I don't follow the faith any more, I was told "there's no point" (by the school) as the spare places, when they come up, will always be offered to those who do. It's so frustrating though, as it's the follow-on school from the school he's currently in.

[ichkeria]

"they just run a case on the basis "the school is full" rather than showing the legal test of prejudice. Parents might have terrible reasons for appealling, but if the school cannot demonstrate prejudice, they must win."

If a school is full then that's a pretty good reason. If an appeal is successful it means a place previously awarded to someone else has to be withdrawn. Generally "better" more popular schools will be oversubscribed and if they aren't the nearest school then it's difficult to make a case. I'm not sure the fact that it's a faith school would make any difference.

[cazzz1975]

when was the last ofsted inspection? the new style inspections give the school only a days notice of an inspection, without giving the school plenty of time to prepare this has cause a lot of previous "outstanding" schools to become 2 "good" or even 3 "satisfactory"

I do think that ofsted has cause this problem of oversubscribed schools, when I was younger I went to my most local catholic school, there was no league tables and inspections back then, there probably wasnt the oversubscribed school problem either.

[cazzz1975]

I have made a lot of grammatical errors, apologies.. :S

[jd_1984]

They just said in their leaflet (for parents looking at the school) that they received an "Outstanding" report. I am unsure when this report is dated from.

[cazzz1975]

go on the ofsted site and look up the school, it will have its most recent inspection dated.
http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/inspection-reports/find-inspection-report

[ichkeria]

"I do think that ofsted has cause this problem of oversubscribed schools, when I was younger I went to my most local catholic school, there was no league tables and inspections back then, there probably wasnt the oversubscribed school problem either. "

Indeed so - while on the one hand it's good to have inspections and some idea of how a school is doing, the "league tables" are a curse. And undoubtedly some schools play up to their reputation, which makes things worse.

[cazzz1975]

A school local to me made the papers last year for misleading ofsted by taking a large amount of badly behaved pupils out of school for the visit days and using lots of local teachers from the primary schools in a bid to get a good report.

school results at gcse level can and have been manipulated in order to make the school seem more successful than it really is.

[cazzz1975]

the newer ofsted reports are probably more accurate than the previous ones.

[Mosaic]

Listening to the last couple of exchanges - the point is, schools may get better or get worse, often quite abruptly, and often related to a good headteacher arriving or leaving and a good governing body paying attention to their responsibilities. In addition the relatively small size of primary schools means you only need one teacher not pulling their weight and problems soon accumulate that affect the whole school.
So in any school the last Ofsted report may be very good but it might be less than brilliant next time round.
Somebody asked about correlations between faith schools and good ofsted rating: the point is that introducing a faith requirement enables a school to select. It's setting a bar and saying that families must meet that point to be considered for entrance. The more free schools, academies etc that sprout up, the more the bog-standard state school will become the last chance saloon, which is has been the intention of government for some time. Both Tories and LabourNew have been admirers of the US system, hence have aped it's system of banding (Key stages), it's utilitarian narrowness and its clear message that fancy-pants deep thought education is not for the masses but only for the paying classes.

[Barmaid]

//If a school is full then that's a pretty good reason. If an appeal is successful it means a place previously awarded to someone else has to be withdrawn. Generally "better" more popular schools will be oversubscribed and if they aren't the nearest school then it's difficult to make a case. I'm not sure the fact that it's a faith school would make any difference. //

Ichkeria, that is factually and legally incorrect. This is how it works:

The school sets a PAN (planned admission number) for each year. It admits children based on the Admission criteria, in accordance with the Schools Admission Code of Practice. Once the PAN is reached, it starts refusing. Legally it cannot do anything else. Thus if the PAN is 80 and they have 100 applications, it follows that 20 will be unsuccessful.

IF one of the unsuccessful parents decide to appeal the Independent Appeals Panel (IAP) can admit children above and beyond the PAN. This DOES NOT mean that a place awarded to another child will be withdrawn. It means the school will have to take a child over and above PAN. Thus if the PAN is 80 and the Panel admit 3, that year group will be 83. A good indicator of how schools cope is to look at the PAN and to see how many people above the PAN it regularly deals with.

As for the "school being full which is a pretty good reason", well its like this, in law "being full" is not enough. The school has to demonstrate prejudice, being full might be a pretty good reason, but that in itself is not enough. I once clerked a case where the LEA was saying "the school is full, blah blah blah", yet the headmaster gave evidence and said "yes the school is full, but we have fantastic measures in place to cope with over crowding and we can manage a few more in that year". All 18 (yes that's EIGHTEEN) appellants were admitted since the IAP could not find any prejudice at all.

Madmen, if you feel strongly, appeal - there are people who know how to contact me and I can tell you how to put an appeal together.

Jd - I am sorry for hijacking your thread.

I know most people know me as a chancery lawyer, but I have also spent 10 years as a clerk to the IAP so have indepth knowledge of Admission and Exclusion appeals.

[ichkeria]

jd I took the time to read our school's OFSTED report and - for what it's worth, the "Christian ethos" is only referred to once, and that only in passing. Which is interesting.

As for the admissions stuff barmaid, I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily. I simply don't understand your point. I can perfectly well see that if some injustice has done then a school would have to recant. That is obvious. I'm not sure what you mean by "displaying prejudice". If a pupil lost out to someone who lived further away that would be a case of unfair refusal.

[Smowball]

MadMed - when we were applying for secondary schools my son's friend was turned down for his 1st choice, even though his big brother went to the school. She appealed even though she was told not to bother, and she won her appeal. So you have nothing to lose. Go for it x

[Smowball]

jd - when I went to secondary school, it was a Church of England school and though my parents weren't church goers, they did believe in God. Anyway, they then had me going to school every Sunday, and even had me confirmed aged 12 by the Bishop of Willdsen, who happened to be heavily involved in the school. Needless to say I got in.