Primary Schools (Conditions Of Entry)

[jd_1984]

So we have had our first acknowledgement letter from one of the 3 primary schools we shortlisted for the little man for September.
This is a Church Of England School (my former school and the best in the area according to OFSTED). We would love to see him there but one big draw back - we do not atend church regularly. One condition, it appears is that you have to confirm "regular worship" and the details of the church that you attend.
We dont want to be dishonest. However, what is everyones thoughts on us attending church from now on (in an attempt to get him into the better school) ? Is this immoral? Would it be too late/too obviuos if we started attending now? Is it just parents trying their best to get the better school? Unfortunately the fact that my dad, myself and my younger brother attended this school means nothing (interestingly enough MY mother attended church on the run up to us starting school to get us in!)
There are other good schools he can go to without religious affiliation.
The thing is though, do OFSTED take into consideration what religion the school follows or is it just how "good" the school is. Therefore is it fair that the best school in our area is a CofE school and therefore parents have to be of that faith or pretend they are to get into the better school.
Apparently if there is spaces after the initial sift, it then goes on distance (radius) of applicants address, we are 2 miles away so our chances are fair/middle.

[rockyracoon]

At our church you know straight away which people are just going for schools, they all scrum in 4 weeks before the priest has to sign references and push their kids in his face, he used to be soft about it but has now started to get very hard (the schools are very oversubscribed).

Everyone wants the best for their kids so don't feel too guilty about, just be aware that the rev might not back you up.

[jd_1984]

I did attend the schools' church, was christened there and went weekly during my primary school years. But I then went to school 10 miles away from home and my family lost contact with the church and the sunday schools etc that I was involved in. My mum was quite an avid church attendee for a few years but then, as not deeply religious, became too busy with other pursuits. It is a shame because here we are all these years later. I dont want to be dishonest, or expect the Rev to back us up etc.. I respect those who have a true faith and I know I would be lying to everyone else at the church by turning up weekly between now and Septmeber. But it is a lovely lovely little school!

[Mosaic]

Your moral dilemma is one that only you can resolve. Ethically this dilemma does not appear to trouble the vast majority of parents, who will happily swear that the moon is made of cheese if it gets their kids into the school of choice. The fact that you acknowledge that there is a troubling gap between your moral stance and wanting the best shows you are thoughtful people and I expect very good people too.
In many faiths you would square this dilemma with the god involved by making an additional 'bargain' eg a gift to charity if all goes as planned. This makes you feel that you aren't cheating and so is good for you psychologically.
It sounds like places will be closely competed for so in the words of the immortal Rod Stewart 'never wait or hesitate, just get in kid before it's too late'.
You may find it handy to start volunteering like mad for church fetes and being generally more helpful round the parish than your competitors.

[jd_1984]

Mosaic, thank you for that thoughtful and well reasoned response

[jake-the-peg]

Immoral?

Listen what's immoral is for religious organisations to be taking taxpayers money to run their schools.

If this were paid for entirely from church or charitable funds that would be different

I wouldn't let the 'morality' enter my head

[rockyracoon]

There's the rub for me, I doesn't really bother me that people do it but I wish they'd play the game, give some support back to the church. I don't know how it works there but down here the school charges the parish churches a capitation fund, this is a yearly fee that has to be paid from the church coffers for every child that attends and lives in the parish, so people that go every week and put in the plate are subsidising kids that never go to church.

[MadMen]

It's not unusual for parents to start attending church, just to get their kids into a "good" school, which happens to be a faith school.
It's no different to people who move house, so they're in the catchment area of the school they want their child to attend. I suppose parents just want the best for the children, and will do whatever measures necessary to make that happen.
I didn't think it was like this with COE schools though? My sister's kid goes to a COE school and neither of them go to church, or have any intentions of doing so. I appreciate all circumstances are different though.

Does the vicar have to sign anything? The priest at our church is pretty clued up on it (like they all are no doubt!) and won't do it. You have to attend mass, regularly go to church, and then baptism, therefore it's not possible for someone to come in 4 weeks before they put in a school admission and just try to blag their way in.

You're right, in that it does then go to distance from the school.
You can also appeal if you're not happy with the school they give you and you'll be put on a waiting list.
Did you put more than one choice down?

[ichkeria]

The perils of OFSTED!
Our son goes to a CofE school but it sounds as though the entry system in our county is different: here, while you can approach the school directly, you have to apply via the local authority. The school gives priority by:
1. Siblings of current pupils
2. Parish residents who attend the village church
3. Nearest to the school regardless of belief
The local vicar as far as I know won't sign anything unless the family in question has been attending the church regularly, not even for new arrivals to the area.
As far as your case is concerned, if you are actually religious but just don't attend church that regularly and your vicar is less particular than ours, then I can't see a problem.
If you're just doing it to get your child into the school well that's up to you. I must say I wouldn't do that but everyone's different.
Also, if you aren't religious don't forget that these schools aren't "CofE" in name only. There'll be regular church services and lessons of a religious nature which you'll have to consider whether you wish your child to participate in.

[jd_1984]

Madmen, at this stage the school is asking for details of "regular worship". No instructions on how we prove this have been detailed.

[MadMen]

Hmm. In that case, I don't think there will be a point in the application where you have to 'prove' it as such, so I guess it's up to you and what you feel is morally right and what kind of upbringing you want for your son.
Do you want him to be brought up in a faith school, or it is solely because it's been classed as "good" by Ofsted? Are you prepared for all the questions you'll asked about god when your little man starts in September? :P

[ummmm]

Get your priest to lie, like I did.

[ichkeria]

Sorry to state the obvious also but don't just go by the OFSTED reports, or even reports of the OFSTED reports. You say you aren't sure why OFSTED has rated it so highly, which suggests maybe you've not read the report yet.
You might find you like the look of a different school?

[jd_1984]

ichkeria - as well as the OFSTED report it was my primary school and I know it to be a good school.

[maggiebee]

Here in Scotland we don't have all this palaver. You go to the primary school in your local catchment area unless your parents have enough dosh for you to go private.

[ichkeria]

Yes but you said:
"The thing is though, do OFSTED take into consideration what religion the school follows or is it just how "good" the school is. "
although I'd be amazed if OFSTED would rate a school as good simply because it was religious

[jd_1984]

I appreciate what your saying.
The point I was trying to make was that schools rated as excellent by OFSTED may have stipulations for entry such as "worship". Therefore one may lose out on a highly rated school if one isnt prepared to attend church for reasons other than "worship".

[ummmm]

Maggie, what about other faiths?

We have 2 Catholic primary schools and 1 Catholic upper school. They are all way out of our catchment area.

The school in my catchment area my boys probably wouldn't get in to.

[MadMen]

I am absolutely gutted. Just received an email saying my son hasn't got into the secondary school we'd requested.

He's been offered the school closest to our house, which is crap. :-((((

[ichkeria]

"I appreciate what your saying.
The point I was trying to make was that schools rated as excellent by OFSTED may have stipulations for entry such as "worship". Therefore one may lose out on a highly rated school if one isnt prepared to attend church for reasons other than "worship". "

I don't know, but I'm guessing that all OFSTED's top-rated schools don't have such stipulations. And of course, if people were worshipping "falsely" just to get their children into the school shall we say then the link between worship and quality would be even less obvious, or would probably soon become broken. Does the report say that in their opinion the children benefit from the religious aspects of the school?
Our local school, although "CofE" and "religious" effectively does not have any stipulation of worship. Only in those rare years where places are very limited might people miss out through not being church-goers. The limitation on places is mainly caused by priority given to siblings. As very few people locally seem to go to church.
The bottom line is you know the school to be good as you attended it, and that is probably a better judgment than anything OFSTED says although of course schools change.

[bednobs]

if we still live here in a few years, i will have the same "dilemma" i guess as our localest school is c of e. I don't believe in all that mumbo jumbo, but my husband does, and we are having our daughter christened in the church to which the school is attached.