Is there a god?

[LeedsRhinos]

Is there a god? I mean look at all the different relgions around the world who all believe that THEY are right & the others are wrong. They can't all be right can they. Which is why in my opion it all rubbish.

[Merlin]

Just to clarify: I'm there in the church mainly to make sure the kids behave or because it's a special occasion. I don't take part in the service in any way. I don't pray, I don't join in the responses, I don't sing the hymns (for which the congregation should be truly thankful) and I certainly don't take communion (It would probably spontaneously combust in my heathen mouth). I'm just there while it goes on around me. I have to say that there seems to be a big difference between the Roman and the Anglican versions. The latter are too liberal and willing to bend to social pressures (I blame Henry VIII). The former do stick to their guns more - some would say they are intransigent and dictatorial. Baptist service struck me as very genuine. I think IR probably has the right attitude; take all the advice available and then make up your own mind. Just like we did.

[Clanad]

Part 1. In 1989 John Maddox, the physics editor for the prestigious journal, Nature, wrote an editorial entitled, �Down With the Big Bang,� in which he (a self-declared atheist) predicted that the big bang theory would not survive even the initial observations coming from the Hubble Space Telescope. The observations from Hubble have only strengthened the veracity of the theory. Literally all astrophysicists adhere to the findings of the last decade.I've compiled a list of highlights of recent evidence for the big bang, specifically for three of its major features (all addressed in the Bible, incidentally): the singularity of its origin, continuous cosmic expansion, and continuous cosmic cooling

[Clanad]

Part II. Exhaustive testing affirms general relativity as the best proven principle in physics, and the spacetime theorems derived from general relativity establish a �singular� simultaneous beginning for all the matter, energy, space, and time in the universe. The universe came into existence from a source, or causal Agent, beyond matter, energy, space, and time. Stable orbits of stars, planets, and moons are essential to the survival of physical life. Given the law of gravity, this stability is possible only if the geography of the universe is defined by three large space dimensions rapidly expanding for at least several billion years. Distant galaxies appear closer together in direct proportion to their distance from us. Distant stars and galaxies are seen at earlier stages of their development in direct proportion to their distance from us. Astronomers observe stars with masses ranging from a tenth of solar mass to a few dozen times the solar mass in stable burning states. This observation indicates that the universe is expanding at a highly fine-tuned rate. If the universe had expanded too quickly, no stars at all would have formed. If it had expanded too slowly, only black holes and neutron stars would have formed.

[Clanad]

Part III The cosmic background radiation measured at great distances from Earth is hotter than such radiation in Earth�s vicinity. In fact, the temperature is higher in direct proportion to the distance at which that radiation is measured. The abundance of elements heavier than helium decreases in proportion to the distance from Earth. This pattern can be explained only by a universe that continuously expands from a creation event and continuously cools. The abundances of helium, deuterium, and lithium observed in the universe only can be explained by a universe that continues expanding from an initial state of near infinite density and temperature. The angular sizes and amplitudes of temperature fluctuations seen in maps of the cosmic background radiation precisely fit what a big bang creation scenario would predict. The measured density of protons and neutrons in the universe matches the prediction arising from the hot big bang creation scenario.

[Clanad]

Part IV The �Hubble time,� that is, the cosmic expansion time (determined from the redshift measurements of distant galaxies), proves consistent with the measured burning times of the oldest stars, the measured abundances of long-lived radiometric elements, and the measured temperatures of the cosmic background radiation in distant gas clouds. By means of the Tolman test, astronomers established that the redshift measurements of distant galaxies arise from a general cosmic expansion rather than from some unknown property of matter or from hypothesized interactions between light and matter as light travels through space (the �tired light� hypothesis). The decay times of distant supernova light intensity (the time taken by an exploding supergiant star to transition from maximum to minimum brightness) affirm that supernovae redshifts are attributable to Doppler-effect velocities. These velocities demonstrate that the universe has been continuously expanding for at least the past ten billion years. Similar confirmation for continuous cosmic expansion over the past ten billion years comes from the observed time dilation in gamma-ray bursts.

[Clanad]

Part V Big bang theory explains astronomers� observation that the cosmic background radiation is slightly hotter in one direction of the heavens than it is in the opposite direction. This effect, according to the theory, would result from Earth�s motion relative to the rest frame of the cosmic background motion. Recently, British astronomers demonstrated that Earth does indeed move, relative to very distant galaxies, in the direction and at the velocity observed and measured. For galaxies and stars to form out of the tiny temperature differences in the radiation coming from the creation event, that cosmic background radiation must exhibit a certain level and distribution of polarization. Astronomers can now detect both the level and distribution of polarization predicted by the big bang

[Clanad]

Part VI I've also put together, for my own clarity, a compendium of offerings to this forum from the various correspondants. Merlin says early on, that he (she?) believes in a series of big bangs. This patently false in the light of scientific examination. He also says that energy exists now, therefore it has always existed. False again, unless you want to argue with these scientists. Merlin also states that the Bible was written at different times by different people with different motives and that the books could have been written after the events predicted. False once more. The Old and New Testaments are ancient records of the first order. I've provided evidence for their reliability (I'll be happy to provide additional evidence). No archaeological discovery has ever contradicted Scripture.

[Clanad]

Part VII Merlin goes onto state hat "I'm satisfied with the answers that science provides". What science? What answers? I can easily construct an extensive list of positions science has taken in the past that have changed or dropped of the radar entirely. Merlin and El duerino as well as Azimov, who is not currently active will not or cannot state what "deffinition" of God will suffice. You keep moving the goalposts, and that is not a trait of a sincere debater. As I stated going in, you can't prove God doesn't exist and I can't prove He does. However, I again ask each of you, on what do you base your "faith" that God doesn't exist? A common thread in your arguments is that God is "elusive". However, God has clearly made His presence in His creation known. He has revealed Himself and His plan for his most prized creation, you and me, for over 3,000 years.

[Clanad]

Part VI I've compiled a list of the various commentators in this forum so I could try to understand their reasoning. Merlin states early on that he argues for a series of big bangs, a continous expanding and contraction. This is demonstrably wrong. Merlin states energy can neither be created nor destroyed, wrong again. It was created in the beginning. Both El duerino and Merlin state that they wish to rely on scientific evidence. Which science? which evidence? How many theories that are now discounted do wish to appeal to?

[Clanad]

Part VI was repeated since I thought I had lost it. Part VIII There are nearly 2,500 prophecies in the OT pertaining to the coming Messiah. Nearly 2,000 of these have been fulfilled. Let me offer just one or two for your consideration; Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus. Probability of chance fulfillment is estimated to be 1 in 10 to the 5th. In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history. Probbility of chance fulfillment 1 in 10 to the 5th.

[Clanad]

Part IX One more: The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God's spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24). This prophetic statement sweeps across 3500 years of history to its complete fulfillment�in our lifetime Probability of chance fulfillment 1 in 1 to the 20th. Even the most jaded non-believer has to wonder what's going on here... or just dismiss it out of hand. I really believe that one of the problems you face is thinking to small. Each one of you wishes to define God in human terms. You believe that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God should do as you believe He should do. As I stated to El duerino in one exchange, for you to state categorically that God does not exist means that you believe you are omniscient...that you are God... with all due respect, have I got news for you. Hey, next time let's discuss evoloution...

[el duerino]

Lol Clannad, perfect. The pseudo-scientific babble of the neophyte. First, a load of rhetoric about the big bang. Ok, but you have a nasty habit not only of knocking down strawmen, but also injecting non sequitur arguments that you think people will miss stuck in the middle of your prose. I will deconstruct your argument when I have more time. But for your edification, archeological digs HAVE disproved parts of scripture - in reference to Jericho. ANd for example - the ancient Egyptians, perhaps the most meticulous record keepers of ancient times have no, I repeat NO record of the claimed exodus. In addition, how accurate do you believe Nostradamus is in hindsight? Extremely. Here's one for you Clannad - if the prophecies in the Bible are so good, tell me something that will happen within the next 50-100 years, tell me accurately so that I can personally verify the prophecy come true. Probability - naff all. Clannad, no offense, but you seem like one of these people who work themselves into a delusional frenzy in your attempts to justify your beliefs. Are you convincing yourself?

[I.R.]

Hi, el D. "if the prophecies in the Bible are so good, tell me something that will happen within the next 50-100 years" Are u by any chance asking clanad to prophesy, or something? I know he digs deep to get info and all, but surely he never claimed to be a prophet?! LOL!!!

[el duerino]

Well you could put it like that. I'm asking that if the Bible prophecies are so accurate and amazing, tell me one of them before they happen, completely accurately. Otherwise I can point you to a dozen heathen premonition experts who, wow amazingly, seem to prophesy the future. But only in hindshight lol. Rather indicative of the theistic worldview imo - fitting the facts to the situation and not vice versa. Or perhaps I could write a prophecy. I bet you anything you want that within 2000 years it would have come true somewhere, at some point. The only way to properly recognise an accurate prophecy is to be accurate in advance. Otherwise its not a prophecy is it? So let me know when you find a banker eh.

[I.R.]

Very typical, El D, skeptical to a T! consider this: The Bible foretold the overthrow of mighty Babylon nearly 200 years before it happened. In fact, the Medes, who became aligned with the Persians, were named as the conquerors. And although Cyrus, the Persian king, had not even been born as yet, the Bible foretold that he would be prominent in the conquest. It said that Babylon's protecting waters, the river Euphrates, "must be dried up," and that "the gates [of Babylon] will not be shut."�Jeremiah 50:38; Isaiah 13:17-19; 44:27-45:1. These specific details were fulfilled, as the historian Herodotus reported. Further, the Bible foretold that Babylon would eventually become uninhabited ruins. And that is just what happened. Today Babylon is a desolate heap of mounds. (Isaiah 13:20-22; Jeremiah 51:37, 41-43) And the Bible is full of other prophecies that have had dramatic fulfillment.

[el duerino]

very good. still waiting though. come on, the bible is riddled with them isnt it? I just want one. I'll give you a prophecy. In the year of fire, a new star shall be born in the east, whereupon ancient lands will become new and a destroyer will emerge. Within 30 years this will have come true. Maybe even 3-4. Meaningless tho. Divinely inspired?

[I.R.]

Bible prophecies being fulfilled today: (1) "The final age of this world is to be a time of troubles. Men will love nothing but money and self; they will be arrogant, boastful, and abusive; with no respect for parents, no gratitude, no piety, no natural affection . . . They will be men who put pleasure in the place of God, men who preserve the outward form of religion, but are a standing denial of its reality."�2 Timothy 3:1-5 more....

[I.R.]

(2)"Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages." Matthew 24:7 (3) "there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences." Luke 21:11.

[I.R.]

Bible prophecies yet to be fulfilled: (1)"The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it," Psalm 37:29 (2) "The thing that Isaiah the son of A�moz visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem: 2 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: �Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.� For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore". Isaiah 2:1-4

[el duerino]

1) thats civilisation for you. been going on for about 5000 years. 2) so any war then? pick one. 3)lol um ok. earthquakes and pestilence. prophecy? to be: 1) right. Presumably those who have won or survived the predicted war. how righteous. 2)I'll have whatever you're smoking And an age of strife shall overcome man, and brother shall turn on brother and husband on wife, and noone shall be at rest. And yea, only through penitence will such times come to pass, and once again the Lord will shine to those who have faith. omg its so easy, maybe I should write a book. First off - anything that predicts trouble/strife/terror/war/famine is not a prophecy. Nor is generic doomsaying. Hence why around 1000 C.E people also though the world would end because they also saw strife, war, famine etc. And it happened again in 2000 C.E. how progressive. Face it, the book does not prophesy anything. You look and see what you want. Give me names, dates, occurances, facts. Until then I will continue to prophesy generic unpleasantness for mankind in the coming years, and be right. I AM MORE ACCURATE THAN THE BIBLE. Think about that one.