ChatterBank2 mins ago
1914-1918 war
This is not really a question but a general comment (just to get it off my chest), which may lead to some discussion.
The TV station BBC4 showed a 7 part documentary a couple of weeks ago on the 1914-18 war which I recorded and have just finished watching it.
Being in my 50s I obviously knew some details of the first world war and the horrors of the trenches.
But this series really opened up my eyes to the amazing stupidity of the war, and the total horror of day to day life in the trenches.
9 million people killed, starving people in Germany and Austria, poison gas used, thousands of people left disabled after the war (amputated legs and arms, parts of their body blown off).
Many nervous breakdowns due to men living in trenches with body parts lying all over the place for days and weeks, people they had been talking to just days earlier.
Mud everywhere, rats eating dead bodies, and mass slaughter on a regular basis.
And of course it changed the course of history, removing the monarchy in Russia and Germany, and redrawing the borders of much of Europe.
Pity the way Germany was treated after the war, and in the peace treaty, was in many ways was responsible for the second world war.
Although the whole thing was only 90 years ago you do wonder how it all happened.
Sorry to ramble on, but the program has had a big effect on me.
With everyone in this country rushing round trying to organize Christmas and getting stressed because they cant buy a Wii or whatever, it just makes you glad you did not live through that war.
If it is on again do try and watch it.
Have a happy Christmas.
The TV station BBC4 showed a 7 part documentary a couple of weeks ago on the 1914-18 war which I recorded and have just finished watching it.
Being in my 50s I obviously knew some details of the first world war and the horrors of the trenches.
But this series really opened up my eyes to the amazing stupidity of the war, and the total horror of day to day life in the trenches.
9 million people killed, starving people in Germany and Austria, poison gas used, thousands of people left disabled after the war (amputated legs and arms, parts of their body blown off).
Many nervous breakdowns due to men living in trenches with body parts lying all over the place for days and weeks, people they had been talking to just days earlier.
Mud everywhere, rats eating dead bodies, and mass slaughter on a regular basis.
And of course it changed the course of history, removing the monarchy in Russia and Germany, and redrawing the borders of much of Europe.
Pity the way Germany was treated after the war, and in the peace treaty, was in many ways was responsible for the second world war.
Although the whole thing was only 90 years ago you do wonder how it all happened.
Sorry to ramble on, but the program has had a big effect on me.
With everyone in this country rushing round trying to organize Christmas and getting stressed because they cant buy a Wii or whatever, it just makes you glad you did not live through that war.
If it is on again do try and watch it.
Have a happy Christmas.
Answers
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Your right of course, war was/is a terrible thing, a complete waste of life and treats men as cannon fodder.
Someone ones said "war turns boys into soldiers and soldiers into boys" refering to the post traumatic stress that many men sufferred from.
Many young men and boys (19) were shot as deserters. Can you imagine being forced to kill or be killed and go towards certain death.
Will it ever end?
Someone ones said "war turns boys into soldiers and soldiers into boys" refering to the post traumatic stress that many men sufferred from.
Many young men and boys (19) were shot as deserters. Can you imagine being forced to kill or be killed and go towards certain death.
Will it ever end?
it has ended, sort of. People don't fight that sort of war any more, at least not Europeans. Folk memory of the horror of the trenches is very strong; so pitched battles of that sort have been replaced by aerial bombardment (this development was already well under way in the second world war). Poison gas isn't used either, any more than cavalry. I'm not saying war has become wonderful, but its nature has changed.
Innocent civilians can still be killed, though, just as they were by the Zeppelin raids in WW1 (a school in Poplar was bombed).
The Ottoman empire collapsed too, VHG.
Innocent civilians can still be killed, though, just as they were by the Zeppelin raids in WW1 (a school in Poplar was bombed).
The Ottoman empire collapsed too, VHG.
>What was the series called?
Well rather surprisingly it was called just "1914-1918"
Here is a TV guide entry for it (from October) where you can see that is all the title is:
http://uk.tv.yahoo.com/listings/bbc-four/2008- 10-23/19-40/
Well rather surprisingly it was called just "1914-1918"
Here is a TV guide entry for it (from October) where you can see that is all the title is:
http://uk.tv.yahoo.com/listings/bbc-four/2008- 10-23/19-40/
For those that have not watched the series a few comments.
It was a facinating series, with loads of background historical information, and much film footage from the period.
BUT it was not a full military study of every the battle, all the generals, or the weapons or tanks used.
Obvioulsly some major battles like the Somme, Ypres and the Russian front were mentioned, but the war in Turkey was hardly mentioned, and very little about Italy for example, and only one brief mention of the Jutland sea battle.
Also historial events were covered, like the Russian Revolution and the USA entering the war.
But it seemed to be more about how the war effected the PEOPLE (from all the countries, not just the UK), it was the war as PEOPLE saw it, not just the world leaders.
Lots of examples of letters that people wrote (both soldiers and civilians) were read out.
Also poems by Owen and Sassoon were read out, with details of how the war affected them.
There was also information how the war affected woman and children "back home", with husbands and boyfriends being killed, and women having to go out to work.
Also a look at the social impact of the war, with so many injured ex-soldiers in every town, plus the impact after the war had finished, with the peace process and so on.
So as I said, NOT a full study of the MILITARY side of the war, but a study of the war and the effect it had on ordinairy people, a SOCIAL study of the war.
But was you have gathered from my opening append, a very moving series.
It was a facinating series, with loads of background historical information, and much film footage from the period.
BUT it was not a full military study of every the battle, all the generals, or the weapons or tanks used.
Obvioulsly some major battles like the Somme, Ypres and the Russian front were mentioned, but the war in Turkey was hardly mentioned, and very little about Italy for example, and only one brief mention of the Jutland sea battle.
Also historial events were covered, like the Russian Revolution and the USA entering the war.
But it seemed to be more about how the war effected the PEOPLE (from all the countries, not just the UK), it was the war as PEOPLE saw it, not just the world leaders.
Lots of examples of letters that people wrote (both soldiers and civilians) were read out.
Also poems by Owen and Sassoon were read out, with details of how the war affected them.
There was also information how the war affected woman and children "back home", with husbands and boyfriends being killed, and women having to go out to work.
Also a look at the social impact of the war, with so many injured ex-soldiers in every town, plus the impact after the war had finished, with the peace process and so on.
So as I said, NOT a full study of the MILITARY side of the war, but a study of the war and the effect it had on ordinairy people, a SOCIAL study of the war.
But was you have gathered from my opening append, a very moving series.
I've been watching the History Channel lately, in particular a programme called The last Days of WW2. It was a highly emotional series culminating in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings.
All the suffering completely moved me to tears. I can't even begin to think how people managed to survive during both WW1 & 2.
All the suffering completely moved me to tears. I can't even begin to think how people managed to survive during both WW1 & 2.
One of the problms when you study the Great War is it always relates to it's static nature.
Sassoon and his ilk had never come up close to the working classes this was the first time people of his generation had to relate to the great throngs of the working population.
A lot of soldiers knew that army life was tough because they will have had friends and relations who were in the Boer War and they all in the main got on with it.
The notion of a demoralised heartbroken army does'nt bear scrutiny because it was able to stay in the field, survive the Kaiser Schlact and mount a successful counter offensive.
I've read many accounts of a sort of gallows humour emerging and many others that were simply just funny, a piece of shrapnel smacking one on the ar5e, an apron blown to bits by a shell, sh1tting yourself in a shell hole (that was a very funny tale)
I'm not saying the Great War was'nt horrific but the middle classes and above struggled to deal with it's reality far more than rest of us.
Sassoon and his ilk had never come up close to the working classes this was the first time people of his generation had to relate to the great throngs of the working population.
A lot of soldiers knew that army life was tough because they will have had friends and relations who were in the Boer War and they all in the main got on with it.
The notion of a demoralised heartbroken army does'nt bear scrutiny because it was able to stay in the field, survive the Kaiser Schlact and mount a successful counter offensive.
I've read many accounts of a sort of gallows humour emerging and many others that were simply just funny, a piece of shrapnel smacking one on the ar5e, an apron blown to bits by a shell, sh1tting yourself in a shell hole (that was a very funny tale)
I'm not saying the Great War was'nt horrific but the middle classes and above struggled to deal with it's reality far more than rest of us.
It was such a complete social benchmark for life in Britain - it really did mark the change from 'Victorian' to '20th century' in a whole lot of ways.
If you can also catch the recent Radio 4 'Things we forgot to remember' about the League of Nations: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fz8fb
That really helps to complete the picture explaining why world war two was inevitable.
You'd like to think governments had learned from these catastrophes.....don't get me started.
If you can also catch the recent Radio 4 'Things we forgot to remember' about the League of Nations: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fz8fb
That really helps to complete the picture explaining why world war two was inevitable.
You'd like to think governments had learned from these catastrophes.....don't get me started.
By far the largest social impacts on Britain (certainly) borne by the Great War were the emancipation of women and the popular vote.
There was no way the common man was going to lay down his life for so long, to see so many of his friends killed for so little that he was willig to return to doffing his cap and to forlocking.
The Great War did, as you say, herald the modern age.
There was no way the common man was going to lay down his life for so long, to see so many of his friends killed for so little that he was willig to return to doffing his cap and to forlocking.
The Great War did, as you say, herald the modern age.
>I've read many accounts of a sort of gallows humour >emerging
Laughing in the face of the horror I suppose. If you did not laugh it would probably drive you mad.
Lets face it, once there most did not have any choice. If you refused to fight you were shot as a coward.
The Richard Attenborough film "Oh what a lovely war" shows this humour up well by including many of the soldiers songs from the period.
For example the soldiers took the song that goes:
"and if I told them how wonderful you are, they'll never believe me, they'll never believe me "
into an ironic song about life in the trenches that went
"and when they ask us how wonderful it was, they'll never believe us, they'll never believe us"
Laughing in the face of the horror I suppose. If you did not laugh it would probably drive you mad.
Lets face it, once there most did not have any choice. If you refused to fight you were shot as a coward.
The Richard Attenborough film "Oh what a lovely war" shows this humour up well by including many of the soldiers songs from the period.
For example the soldiers took the song that goes:
"and if I told them how wonderful you are, they'll never believe me, they'll never believe me "
into an ironic song about life in the trenches that went
"and when they ask us how wonderful it was, they'll never believe us, they'll never believe us"
> he was willing to return to doffing his cap and to
> forlocking.
It did have an impact on many of the large country houses in the UK.
Many of these large country houses had a staff of 30, 40, 50 or more:- servants, gardeners etc.
Gradually these people went to war, and the houses and gardens fell into a terrible state.
Many people of course did not come back, and those that did no longer wanted to work for "the boss in the big house".
When large death duties came in, many families decided to knock down their country house and this country lost thousands of large country houses between the wars.
One that was recently rescued is the lost gardens of Heligan in Cornwall which never recovered after the first world war.
This garden lay untendered for decades until it was rescued by Tim Smit and others (Tim Smit built the Eden project).
It is now open to the public
http://www.heligan.com/flash_index.html
> forlocking.
It did have an impact on many of the large country houses in the UK.
Many of these large country houses had a staff of 30, 40, 50 or more:- servants, gardeners etc.
Gradually these people went to war, and the houses and gardens fell into a terrible state.
Many people of course did not come back, and those that did no longer wanted to work for "the boss in the big house".
When large death duties came in, many families decided to knock down their country house and this country lost thousands of large country houses between the wars.
One that was recently rescued is the lost gardens of Heligan in Cornwall which never recovered after the first world war.
This garden lay untendered for decades until it was rescued by Tim Smit and others (Tim Smit built the Eden project).
It is now open to the public
http://www.heligan.com/flash_index.html
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>while being led by a lunatic called Haig.
The program showed clearly that the Germans and French had their share of lunatic Generals.
When the Germans decided to try to take Verdun at the begining of 1916 they knew the French would defend it to the hilt, being an important city to the French.
The German Generals knew that many Germans would die, but also thought that twice as many French would be killed and went ahead on that premis.
The battle began in February and went on till December that year.
The Germans began by firing a million shells from over a thousands heavy guns.
During the year it is estimated over 250,000 were killed, and maybe a million wounded (on both sides).
Some consider it the bloodiest battle in human history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun
The program showed clearly that the Germans and French had their share of lunatic Generals.
When the Germans decided to try to take Verdun at the begining of 1916 they knew the French would defend it to the hilt, being an important city to the French.
The German Generals knew that many Germans would die, but also thought that twice as many French would be killed and went ahead on that premis.
The battle began in February and went on till December that year.
The Germans began by firing a million shells from over a thousands heavy guns.
During the year it is estimated over 250,000 were killed, and maybe a million wounded (on both sides).
Some consider it the bloodiest battle in human history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun
Good point about the numbers of servants who joined up and never went back to the estates. Of greater effect, however, was the death rate among the officers, many of whom came from the families who owned the estates. It was the loss of this generation that sealed the fate of many of the big country houses; either there was no one left to take them on or death duties swallowed up any hope of making them viable.
A large swathe of the aristocracy was wiped out in the Great War.
Slum clearances were one of the results of the post war years.
Haig comes in for a lot of criticism but is it entirely justified?
The Somme was a political battle to help keep the French in the field (at Verdun) Haig was pessimistic about the outcome from the off, he orchestrated what could've been a successful battle at Loos only to be denuded of troops by Sir John French at the crucial moment, it was the actions of Haig during the Kaiser Schlacht that saved the alliance and the tactics he introduced in the counter offensive were very successful, and very modern with their use of tanks and close air support almost like a precursor of the Liddell-Hart (Blitzkrieg) doctrine.
Slum clearances were one of the results of the post war years.
Haig comes in for a lot of criticism but is it entirely justified?
The Somme was a political battle to help keep the French in the field (at Verdun) Haig was pessimistic about the outcome from the off, he orchestrated what could've been a successful battle at Loos only to be denuded of troops by Sir John French at the crucial moment, it was the actions of Haig during the Kaiser Schlacht that saved the alliance and the tactics he introduced in the counter offensive were very successful, and very modern with their use of tanks and close air support almost like a precursor of the Liddell-Hart (Blitzkrieg) doctrine.
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