The warm front sceme (boiler grant) and requirement for a tenancy

[Thunderchild]

My father who is disabled and on pension credits phone up to find out about the government scheme that can get him a grant for a new boiler as the one in the house is quite old and inefficient.

Now he was asked if he owns the house, the answer was no as it belongs to myself and my sister. So the next question was is there a tenancy agreement ? the answer is also no as we do not charge him rent. Apparently because he does not have a tenancy agreement he can't apply.

Now my thought was this: ok lets do a tenancy agreement for him, whether or not he pays us the rent is besides the point as long as he gets his boiler. But that would them mean that myself and my sister will be liable for income tax on the "rent" which we don't actually want.

So my thought is: what if we make a tenancy agreement for a very small amount ? like a few pounds. That way the tax in negligible and I don't mind paying it and he gets the boiler. but how low can a tenancy agreement be made for ? or can an agreement be drawn up on the basis of free rent giving him the right to remain for as long as he wants (until death if that be the case)

I can understand why they have done it like this to stop people on benefits being "used" to get a free boiler. but myself and my sister have our own houses and our father will live in the house for as long as he wishes, so this is not about benefiting us but him as he would otherwise be entitled.

Any ideas ?

[B00]

Can't you just apply for it instead?

[Thunderchild]

no because i am not on benefits, he is the occupier and he gets benefits.

Of course in this country you are either getting it all out of the government or you get nothing. If he was in a council funded house costing the government thousands of pounds a year they would have happily thrown more money at him, not much changes in this country !

[Thunderchild]

of course if that's the way they want it we could charge him rent and he can ask the government to pay it ? I won't complain, if that's what they are asking for...

[mike11111]

That sound the way forward to me. Charge him rent and let him claim housing benefit. If the housing benefit does not over the full rent just take from the amount of HB. That way he doesn't lose anything, he can apply for his grant and you make a few bob. Winners all round it seems to me.

[Thunderchild]

so what do we do to setup a tenancy ? could the council reject his claim because his children own the house ?

[maclarencat]

I am guessing dad gave you the house to avoid losing it if he ever has to go into care. This is one of the dowsides to him no longer owning the house. The upkeep of the house is now your responsibility. If this is not so and you and your sister bought it for him to live in and neither of you is on benefit then why can't you pay for the boiler.This is what normally happens if you need a new boiler in a house you own .

[ladybirder]

Mike, winners all round? Except the tax payers.

[Thunderchild]

well ladybirder that was my initial comment !

The situation is that our parents gifted the house to us about 7 years ago to keep it out of their divorce proceedings as it would clearly end up with the solicitors to cover the costs and they (my father) wanted to make sure we get it in the end(we lived in italy at the time and it was rented). My mother was the one that caused all of the trouble that split the marriage up and we agreed that my father can do as he pleases with the house while he is alive, we have never heard from our mother who knows where to find us. He lives in it and pays all of his own bills (just as his benefit barely covers his living costs).

As i said before I just want him to get help with getting a new boiler installed. He cannot afford it and is paying a fortune in gas. I have a slightly larger house with poor insulation and put the thermostat at 18c this winter, i used 7000 KW of gas and have a modern boiler. He skimpt on heating as he can't afford it, has a well insulated house and used just over 10'000 KW ! the issue is that his boiler and general system has to be something crazy like 40%- efficient

[cassa333]

Although I would not like to test the legality of this but you could charge him rent, that he gets paid by HB and then 'help him out' by paying a bill or two for him.

That way his meagre benifits would go a little firther.

[Thunderchild]

the thought had crossed my mind. my main aim though is that he gets the damn boiler. He has been pretty hard done by, by the system. They seem to throw money at people who could do without it and penalize those that do need help.

There is a woman round the corner from him who I looked at a mobility scooter for, she said it was given to her and she already had one so wanted to fix it and sell it and split the profit. she is on benefit, had bought extra land for her 2 sheds that were brimming with all sorts of stuff she had bought and she is a serial smoker and the claims to be ill - give me a break !. Naturally i never heard from her again and when I crossed her in the street she completely ignored me.

[hc4361]

You own one and a half houses yet expect the taxpayer to pay for a new boiler?

[boxtops]

If it's your house, the boiler is landords fixtures and fittings, whether he pays rent or not - so it's not his responsibility to get the boiler. This sounds as if you are only asking him to apply for him because he happens to be on benefits and you're not. That sounds to me like fraud.

[Thunderchild]

as stated we treat the one my father occupies as his own, He lives there at his and our own costs and will for the rest of his life where he would otherwise be claiming housing benefits. We costs the tax payer nothing. he is in the same position as someone renting from the council on housing benefit except that we don't charge the state rent (which apparently we could). All he wants is the grant for the boiler, we are not rich, in fact struggle. of course you probably think the government spend the money better giving it away on free solar systems to people who are not on benefits that don't make as much green power as the new boiler will save for less mone. So don't go questioning my morals please ! you have no idea of our personal situation.

No I don't want the damn boiler, it does not benefit ME one little bit, I have my own house and live on my own, he is the occupier and he is the one paying a fortune in gas. Basically the system works like either they pay you lots or pay you nothing, and then people moan that people on benefits are scrounging too much, well if that is how the system is designed by the same government that demonizes benefit claimants. How is it that a discussion of this kind on here always goes the same way?

for those of you who think like the government, no most people do not earn £24'000+ and no you cannot survive decently on under £16'000 and no we are not all in this together, the essentials in life have risen by 30% and this hits the poorest, but then this government does not know that anyone other than "their class" exists !

[boxtops]

I understand where you are coming from, tc, but you've already said that it's your house - and if it were put to the test, unless there is some sort of formal agreement that says boiler, central heating etc. are the tenant's responsibility, it's the owner who has to replace it. I know it's not fair in the scheme of things, I see your viewpoint, but without an occupancy agreement saying it's his responsibility, I can't see how your dad can claim.

[Kathyan]

If it's your house, even if he applied for housing benefit, he wouldn't get it because he is renting from a relative. If he doesn't declare that you are a relative, he will be defrauding the benefit system. As has been said before, if it's your house, then you are responsible for the boiler.

[Thunderchild]

Well if that is the case, that being my house, he can't rent from me or claim then fine. Once again I'll congratulate the system for it's stupidity and get on with life.

Having seen his bill I hoped there was something that could be done as the system is criminally poorly efficient but looks like we'll have to leave it for now

[thedodge]

There are plenty of people renting from relatives who claim benefit

[Thunderchild]

well as it was his house 10 years ago maybe they won't "buy it"

[Mamyalynne]

The Council may deem it a 'Contrived Tenancy' given as you say, that he previously owned the house and now is suddenly paying rent to family. the only sure way is to contact the Housing section or maybe try Shelter for advice.

[Thunderchild]

well I lived there until 15 months ago and my sister moved out 3 months ago. not sure what difference that makes, so where he lived with us before he is now living in our house on his own