Harold Shipman Documentary

[Smowball]

Apart from being utterly gobsmacked at how many people he murdered, they’ve just said he was 56 when he was convicted. Am shocked - he looked at least 15 years older. And it still hasn’t said why he killed all those people.

[murraymints]

I believe Jeffrey Archer had a following inside too..as a writer of letters...

[EDDIE51]

^ I heard Archer used to write letters for other inmates who were illiterate .
If you are at all interested in the reality of prison,rather than what you hear on TV and in films, you can not do better than read Archer's 3 'Prison Diaries ' They really do 'tell it like it is'. From high security to open conditions he went through it all.

[anneasquith]

( he went through it all ) I hope so, he's a criminal who happens to be an author .

[murraymints]

I rather think white collar crime such as Archer's is not in the same league as serial killer !!

[Sqad]

bednobs....."double effect?"
Never heard of it.

[Jackdaw33]

Archer's downfall was committing perjury in denying that he had paid off a prostitute.

[murraymints]

feel sorry for the "fragrant " Mary..

[bednobs]

i am surprised sqad, that you have never hear of the doctrine of double effect. However, i guess it's just more known in the palliative world, rather than the surgical world, It's more to do with ethics than law i suppose

[Sqad]

OK......perhaps you could explain it to me over a candlelit meal some evening ;-)

[Jackdaw33]

//The doctrine of double effect. This doctrine says that if doing something morally good has a morally bad side-effect it's ethically OK to do it providing the bad side-effect wasn't intended. This is true even if you foresaw that the bad effect would probably happen.\\

[Sqad]

Thanks Jack..............bit too clever for sqaddy boy ;-)

[bednobs]

you want the candlelit dinner jack?
Basically it means it's moraly ok to give someone a large dose of morphine to help with pain even if you think it's likely the person will die at the end of the needle

[Sqad]

bednobs......yes! yes! I understand that...BUT ...if the next of kin take legal action against you, would there be a case to answer?

[ummmm]

When my dad was dying he had loads of oral morphine in the house. We were told he could have it whenever he wanted it.

I assume there are different strengths of it though.

[Jackdaw33]

Basically physicians know that continually upping doses of morphine will inevitably shorten life although that is not their intention.

[Peter Pedant]

// .bit too clever for sqaddy boy //

well it shouldnt be - it was the basis for the acquittal of Dr bodkin adams - 1957

and makes perfect sense
you are giving morphine to deal with pain
and the shortening of life is an unwanted second effect

' the law on this is very clear. It starts off with the famous direction to the jury by Devlin J in Bodkin Adams and it has been taken up in a number of subsequent authorities: that, if the primary purpose, as here, is to treat properly and to reduce pain, the incidental consequence of shortening of life is perfectly acceptable, medically, ethically and legally." '

Devlin 50 y later then said he thought Bodkin Adams had done it - but so what - a judge can be wrong and frrequently are !

[Peter Pedant]

// that you have never hear of the doctrine of double effect. //

but he heard the words as - - - "have another gin - it will have a double effect......." - and thought yeah good idea and rather missed it was a legal case

[Jackdaw33]

Nurse Dorothea Waddington (1936) wasn't so lucky.

[Peter Pedant]

// Archer's downfall was committing perjury in denying that he had paid off a prostitute.//

yeah perjury because a perverse verdict had been brought in and had to be reversed etc - before it comes to court, you get done for perverting the course of justice
Penalty starts at 2 y in gaol ! oo-er mrs!

and in his case - the perjured document was an affidavit which was sworn but not used in court ( apparently )

today in the high court - s/o has been found guilty of contempt of court in making a false claim against an NHS hospital ( oo-er even more Mrs!)

[Peter Pedant]

eek !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothea_Waddingham

as sqad said so eloquently - never 'eard of her - who's she then ?

DW does seem to have well you know er killed people....