Liverpool Echo Thursday November 14Th...
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nick griffin
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today nick griffin the leader of the bnp was charged with comments likely to incite racial hatred . firstly i am not a racist. but feel strongly that this man should be arrested for practising free speach when the radical cleric abu hanza could preach anti west hatred outside finsbury park mosque and it took the police forever to arrest him .what do you think about this issue?
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Whilst I agree that Abu Hanza was allowed to continue inciting hatred against the west for far too long, I am also glad that racists such as Nick Griffin and other ranking BNP officials are being charged with what are CRIMES. I can't possibly imagine what would convince people to vote for a party led by bigoted criminals, and I don't forsee a great showing of support for them at the upcoming election. If I'm proven wrong, then I really wonder what is happening to the UK.
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Controversially I'm going to diasagree with most of the respondents.
I agree that Abu Hanza should have been arrested faster. The problems that the police had in that case were twofold - 1, evidence. They needed testimony that could stand up in court as to what exactly he was saying otherwise any case would not have a realistic prospect of success. In the BNPs case they have access to extensive undercover films made by a BBC journalist. This removes that problem. 2, as a democracy we are bound by the rule of law. If there isn't a law against it you can do it. There is a law against inciting racial hatred. There isn't a law against inciting religious hatred although one is currently before Parliament. As neither 'the west' nor 'non muslims' is understood as a race there would have been great difficulty again in prosecuting Abu Hanza. The police have to set priorities in part based on the chance of a successful prosecution. In this case the chances of a prosecution were much greater in one case than another.
As someone white and British I find the BNP a shameful organisation which embarasses me. I think any generalisation which makes any group on the basis of ethnicity, gender, religion, sexual persuasion is unhelpfully reductionist. I believe that there are people who make valuable contributions from all backgrounds and people who are violent, ignorant and repellent also.
If you want to support the BNPs 'right' to state it's views by all means do so - but then support Abu Hanza's 'right' too. If you do not support one's 'right' then do not support the other's. As long as you are consistent you are unlikely to be accused of being racist.
very well said lillabet. I think Mr Griffin pointed out that this little exercise to coincide with the election may be designed to help the labour party garner some of the muslim vote they have so obviously lost. Case in point is the labour candidate for the Brentford seat. She is sending out leaflets saying that the war was wrong, that she does not agree with guantanomo bay and does not agree with labour policies with regards to house arrest etc. Now what sort of nensense is this from the labour party. They must really hold us in very high esteem if they think we will fall for this. Is Mr Griffin right?? I hope not.
Having said that I must say as a non white UK national i am very very happy that the rule of the law is being applied to both Mr. Griffin and Mr. Hamza. I think these cases should be seen beyond party lines and election politics
I think you give the police too much credit for jumping on Nick Griffin - didn't it take an undercover television program in July last year to get them to pay any attention to him?
I have to say I think there's a general feeling in the Police in all sensitive cases not to go "looking for trouble" they never seem to do this sort of prosecution off of their own initiative
Nick Griffin has not called for violence against Muslims - indeed if we want to call the BNP a mainstream party - they are the only mainstream party utterly opposed to Western support fror the bandit-state of "Israel" and it's campaign of terror against the Arab (mostly Muslim) population.
Nick Griffin is also different from Abu Hanza in that he is not living in a country with which he has no links through family lineage - an immigrant in other words - decrying the values of that country, whilst being quite happy too live of the social security contributions of the indigenous population.
To those "ashamed/embarassed" etc to be white ... no need, for all that - just don't vote for the BNP!
ludwig, the problem the police face is firstly in finding evidence which will not be destroyed bya good defence council. I could make a website and write that I heard someone say XYZ or I could type something and put your name at the bottom of it. That doesn't provide suffiicient proof that I'm not making it up or misquoting.
That someone else might have produced such documents in another's name is something that has to be considered possible unless the police can produce evidence which proves otherwise. This is quite possibly why the existence of the BBC tapes has been a factor in the Nick Griffin arrest.
Secondly - and this is a point cruthinboy raised. There is nothing illegal in holding any belief no matter how repellant your ideas may be to anyone else. There is no legislation against what it in your head. Otherwise if you've ever genuinely thought - I wish I could punch / kill him / her etc then you'd be guilty of a crime of assault.There is no offence of 'being a racist'
I may disagree with both Hamza and Griffin but there is nothing illegal in believing with all your heart that another race is somehow inferior to another. Nor is there anything illegal in saying that you believe this. The offence in question is INCITING racial hatred. In other words encouraging others to act on your words.
I agree that there are things that Hanza has been heard to say in interviews etc that I completely disagree with - but the same is true of Griffin. They have both been sufficiently clever - and frighteningly they both seem to have a high level of intellect - to not say anything that would be certain enough to be classed as incitement.
The original question suggested that in his preaching Hanza might well say more extreme things - which might well be incitement. The undercover filming by the BBC made the same point about Griffin. The interviews etc in public and the BNP literature which was published was not sufficient for prosecution. However the statements made to the party faithful at closed meetings were capable of bearing criminal meaning. The same may well have been true on Hanza at the Finsbury Mosque. There was however no recording and no-one offering testimony. Therefore not enough evidence.
Oh, and cruthinboy - I am not ashamed or embarassed to be British or White. There is much to proud of in my background and ethnicity. I find the BNP shameful and embarassing. I would never vote for them.
What is embarassing is when holding my views is seen as being self-hating. I see no problem in respecting and even valuing other backgrounds and cultures whilst still being proud of who I am.
Sorry Lillabet - I didn't mean you or anyone else was ashamed to be white - I used the "..." to indicate that the rest of the sentence was understood and hence omitted i.e. "ashamed to be white and support the BNP". Lookng back, it was ambiguous!
By the way, does anybody here find the Labour party shameful and embarassing and its leaders suitable for arrest? Whatever Griffin and Tyndall et al may or may not have said about Muslims, they haven't acted on it with quite the same enthusiasm as Blair and his cronies in Iraq and Afghanistan
