Lybia

[jd_here]

So, Cameron dashes home from holiday over the Lybian crisis, but it takes him 3 days to return over the London riots, sort of says a lot, doesn't it?

[emmie]

If Cameron or any politician rushed home from their holidays or what ever country they might be visiting, every time there was a crisis, he and his fellow politicians wouldn't go anywhere. and it's Libya as far as i know.

[stonesub]

That's Libya ...

[ichkeria]

If Cameron does nothing else of any value during his hopefully short time as PM then his gallant intervention on behalf of Libya's brave rebels will have made it worth it.

[emmie]

If Gadaffi goes, what happens afterwards, no one seems to be thinking that far ahead.

[Gromit]

Em10

What happens when Gaddafi has gone - The Islamists take over.

They will thank us at first for putting them in power, but it won't be long before they are denouncing us.

[ichkeria]

Why do we always assume that Arab country = Islamists waiting to take over?
We should think more highly of the Libyan people. There are "Islamists" among the rebels, but it would be bizarre if there were not: there are many different factions and therein lies the potential problem. However, learning lessons from Iraq in particular, we can help the Libyans get their new institutions up and allow them to choose whoever they want as their government - something denied them by the gangster regime previously in power.

[ichkeria]

"no one seems to be thinking that far ahead. "

Easy to say, but completely wrong. There have been people doing just that from round about the time it was obvious that Gaddafi's days were numbered.
I'm not talking about the chattering classes like us, but people who matter :-)

[anotheoldgit]

Yes like they thought out the 'end game' in Iraq?

[ichkeria]

"Yes like they thought out the 'end game' in Iraq? "

Which is why I said "learning lessons from Iraq in particular," - i.e. how not to do it.
In any case Iraq was rather different as it was a foreign-led invasion. What really stuffed Iraq in the end though was outside interference, and that is something they'll be wary of now.

[modeller]

W

[modeller]

With the collapse of Libya there are three countries with egg on their faces
Iran, Russia and to a lesser extent China. They all carefully select anti-west people to interview and Iran even has that Big Brother idiot George Galloway with his own TV show.

[ichkeria]

Absolutely right, modeller. RT, the Russian so-called news channel has been quoting an "independent" journalist called Lizzie Phelan, who basically rants and raves against NATO. Early on Saturday she was claiming that the rebels had faked footage of themselves in Zawiya and Zlitan (!), that NATO was bombing the c**p out of Tripoli, and that reports that the rebels were about to enter the capital were exaggerated. She looks ridiculous now, but it won't stop her, or any of the others, claiming with a straight face that they are the voice of reason and truth.

[New Judge]

“If Cameron does nothing else of any value during his hopefully short time as PM then his gallant intervention on behalf of Libya's brave rebels will have made it worth it.“

Let’s wait and see before we shout from the rooftops.. As Gromit has alluded to, and as we saw to our cost in Iraq, what’s happened so far is the easy bit. Still to come is the inter-tribal warfare and the inter faction antagonism between the various Muslim elements. The fact that the regime this time was overthrown from within (with a little help from without) makes little difference.

The UK was reckless in its anxiety to steam in and help “rebels” about whom we knew relatively little. There is little doubt that we will now be sucked into Libya to “keep the peace” as tribal warfare takes hold. Already there is talk of “helping Libya find stability” and “helping Libya towards democracy”. These are not our responsibilities and anybody who thinks this is the end of the matter, or even the beginning of the end of the matter, may find themselves sadly mistaken.

[ichkeria]

You seem to have decided that "tribal warfare" is inevitable.
There is no doubt in my mind that had the allies NOT intervened, apart from any thing else, the fighting would have been longer and bloodier, and the chances of divisions among the rebels (who says we know little about them? I think we know quite lot) and subsequent tribal warfare would have been that much greater.
We had a chance to do something "good" albeit fraught with risk, as many things in life are, and we took it. So well done Mr Cameron just to show I am not biased :-)

[emmie]

Gromit, i rarely agree with you, but feel that you are right this time.
As to the rebels, we don't know anything about them, and every time we step into the democracy arena, we usually come off worse, so watch this space.

[ichkeria]

Sorry to labour (so to speak) the point, but why do you say we know nothing about the rebels? Several governments (including Britain's) already recognised the Transitional Council as the legitimate government of Libya some time ago, and while certainly I am sure no one could fill in a questionnaire 100% on who every single faction is, I think I'd credit the powers that be with a little more wit than to be dealing totally in the dark.
Besides, so what if we don't know? Who'd heard of Cameron outside of the UK a few short years ago? That's life - people come and go and I think it's a mite offensive to assume that just because it's johnny foreigner with a dark skin the forces of darkness are waiting in the wings.
Anyway, we will see.

[emmie]

Ickeria, who on earth mentioned anything about johnny foreigner, but these matters won't be dealt with by our politicians, nor should they be, it's interference that has got us into the damn mess we are in. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, why can't we just keep out. If they want democracy that is for them to decide. We always seem to have an agenda, is there oil, or contracts that we can grab, when the fighting stops, if it ever does.

[tamborine]

there wont be mass rape of Libyans - for that Cameron was right to press for UN might.

http://www.jpost.com/...rticle.aspx?id=224247

[New Judge]

You’re no doubt right about the length of the conflict, ichkeria. It probably would have dragged on had outside forces not become involved. However, as I said, it’s by no means over just yet and those craving democracy in Libya may find it does not deliver quite what they imagined it would. Then the fun will begin.

I’m afraid the fact that many governments “recognised” the rebels as the legitimate government in Libya does not cut a lot of ice. I personally would not “...credit the powers that be with a little more wit than to be dealing totally in the dark.” If experience from the recent past is anything to go by we made a balls up in Iraq, are still involved in a balls up in Afghanistan, and only about seven years ago our Prime Minister was smooching over Colonel Gadaffi as if he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I’m afraid I don’t share your confidence in the “wit of the powers that be”.

It’s true few people hear of our politicians before they come to the fore (and a good many are not too familiar with them afterwards). However, I know May 2010 is a long time ago but as far as I can recall, Mr Cameron did not oust Gordon Brown from Number Ten by bloody revolution, aided by targeted bombing from a foreign power who may not have known one of our politicians from another.

Still, we need not disagree over any of this. All we need to do is wait and see.

[ehtubert]

He want to be on our TV screen when they announce that Ghadaffi has been overshthrown. UIt is not quite the same as giving the face for shops burning in London....