Little Englanders.....

[Loosehead]

Why are we called Little Englanders if we don't agree with the Europhiles? Why do they revert to name calling instead of explaining why we should allow peacetime invasion by the corrupt EU?

[Lillabet]

Because all political groups / individuals like to disparage those whom they perceive as being in opposition to their ideas.

Look at the abortion debate - anti abortionists call themselves pro life and pro abortionists baby killers etc. Thos who support abortion call themselves pro choice and those against abortion anti-choice. It's all the same thing - trying to lower the status of the opposition.

In terms of the uk political landscape those in favour of Europe are generally associated with the left wing who regularly get cally loony lefties or have 'political correctness gone mad' (possible the most overused phrase of all) thrown at them.

Basically, because although it is neither big nor clever rubbishing the opposition is a commonly engaged in tactic...

[jake-the-peg]

Unfortunately Lillabet's right.

There's a great history of it. The term Prime Minister was first used as a term of abuse sacastically implying that Walpole had taken too much power onto himself.

The terms Whig and Tory were orignally terms of abuse too!

People also like to insert contentious (and possibly slanderous) language into questions to attempt to give them validity by repeating them enough.

[jno]

lovely cartoon in the Guardian yesterday Lillabet in which a right-on social worker, told she can't say brainstorming because it upsets epileptics, says 'This is political correctness gone having mental health problems!'

re disparaging people you disagree with, note the phrase 'corrupt EU'.

[Loosehead]

Well any outfit that can't get it's accounts agreed for 10+ years has a good chance of being corrupt! If any private business had the same record their director would be in jail! I don't think it's disparaging to state the facts.

[Lillabet]

The sad thing is that in its simplest form making an effort to be politically correct is simply saying that we should where possible avoid using terms / language which other people find offensive even if we might not regard these terms as problematic. As far as I can tell this is simply about being a polite and courteous individual. Hardly something deserving of being called 'madness' not even something which we should regard as an effort...

Sorry if this is a little off topic. Also apologies for the many spelling misatkes in the original post.

[jno]

well of course the EU can't be corrupt when high offices are filled by people like Peter Mandelson, and he can't be corrupt, because he rose through British politics, right? I trust his lofty standards of personal behaviour will be a beacon of inspiration to any of those eurocrats who might be tempted towards the dark side.

Yes Lillabet, political correctness is what my mother used to call 'being polite'.

[flaming]

loosehead, the other side use the term to make us feel guilty if we are anti-EU, and to demonstrate to any waverers how they will be scorned if they side with the anti-EU brigade.  Don't forget there's a body within the right wing which also wants us to follow the EU path wholeheartedly.  Ken Clarke will probably run for the Tory leadership and he's a pro-EU man.

The man sent to be our man in the EU,  to sort out the corruption mess, and who didn't, is now a Labour Peer - Lord Kinnock, take a bow. 

I believe every country's V.A.T. goes to the EU. ?Rebates are then doled out by the UNELECTED and UNACCOUNTABLE Eurocrats.

[Hgrove]

People who work for the Commission are unelected and unaccountable no more nor less than our own civil servants in Whitehall. MEPs are elected.  Council of Ministers/Council of Europe members are Prime Ministers and Ministers from all member states and look after national interests.  They have massive influence on the EU legislative function.  EU laws don't get passed if the Prime Ministers and Ministers from all the member states don't like them.

[flaming]

Hgrove:  So... you feel our national  interests are looked after?

By some of MEPs own admission they stay long enough to 'sign in' and then go off to... wherever.

There has to be an annual audit of Government expenditure here  - not that some things don't get 'hidden', I'm sure.  The new Freedom of Information Act has already exposed several anomalies.   One I remember was the gap between what the Government said cars cost last year and what they did actually cost (�11.5 million).  On cars. Some MEPs, over the years, have tried but failed in the attempt to make the organisation accountable.  The political grandees, the Commissioners, who are NOT elected,  readily accept the status quo and in fact become part of it.  I think it is fair to say that the higher echelons of the EU enjoy greater privileges, salaries and expenses than any monarch in history that one can think of.                      

I find that when it suits, our Government blames the EU for its legislation or lack of it, whereas the EU, when it wants to slide out of doing something, claims that something to be a national affair.

In the meantime, as many deals as possible are done behind closed doors.  My regret is that I was too young and naive when the first referendum took place as to whether we would join the old EEC.  If only I had known where a 'YES' vote would lead. 

[Bangkok]

Flaming, VAT is a national tax with some rules on harmonisation and cross charging.  UK VAT is retained by Gordon to do as he pleases with.

Customs Duty is an EU tax that is uniform in rates and application in all 25 Member States.  It goes to Brussels to do what they please with it.  10% is retained by National Governments as a collection fee.

Customs duties are reducing under international agreements and so are becoming less relevant in developed countries (non-tariff barriers remain a major issue)

[robbieh]

Why do you say its a "peace time invasion" (invasion by our own mp's out there - how does that work???)? Well your of the same mentality/thinking as them - using inflated terms to describe the opposite and thus trying and make a mockery of it!

[flaming]

Dunno if there's anyone still reading this but I for one am not happy about tier upon tier of people helping themselves to other peoples' money whoever it is, and whatever name is given to the money.  I note we never get a bureaucracy 'instead of'. It's always 'as well as'.