Crosswords1 min ago
Are you proud to be English?
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Those who are English are constantly called British, why are they trying to wipe the English from the map?
But if some continue to class us as British why do they then shorten this by referring to us as 'Brits'?
If it is offensive to shorten the word of Pakistanis, then surely it is just as offensive to shorten the word of British by calling us 'Brits'?
Those who are English are constantly called British, why are they trying to wipe the English from the map?
But if some continue to class us as British why do they then shorten this by referring to us as 'Brits'?
If it is offensive to shorten the word of Pakistanis, then surely it is just as offensive to shorten the word of British by calling us 'Brits'?
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Wop: An Italian, from Southern Italian dialect 'guapo' , a braggart. Seems to have been an Italian term of abuse.Maybe it was a word applied by non-Southerners to Southerners or simply a jocular term for Southerners used by Southerners. Who knows? It was a term for all Italians used by British soldiers iin the war.
How on earth can you be "proud" of something you've not lifted a finger to achieve
It's as daft as being proud of the colour of your hair!
Now if you're an immigrant to the UK I can see how you might be proud of that - especially given the attitude of some natives!
As for offensive terms it all depends on how it's used
If you've been kicked, spat on while someone yells "Pakki" in your face the term becomes pretty offensive.
I don't know any Brits that have suffered that
Until that becomes an issue you can't compare the two
It's as daft as being proud of the colour of your hair!
Now if you're an immigrant to the UK I can see how you might be proud of that - especially given the attitude of some natives!
As for offensive terms it all depends on how it's used
If you've been kicked, spat on while someone yells "Pakki" in your face the term becomes pretty offensive.
I don't know any Brits that have suffered that
Until that becomes an issue you can't compare the two
sp1814
/// As an example, someone from New York has the option of saying "I'm a New Yorker" or "I'm American" and both would be true. ///
And as would someone from London has the option of saying "I'm a Londoner" would also be true.
So I can't really see your point.
/// Also, I don't ever remember it being used specifically in relation to people from Pakistan. It was a derogatory term for anyone 'Asian-looking', which included Indians. ///
No I think you are wrong there, surely it is anyone Indian looking i.e.coming from the Indian sub-continent.
You can be Chinese and 'Asian Looking' but could not be confused with someone from Pakistan.
As would be anyone who was European could not be classed a 'Brit' which is also a derogatory word for any one from Britain especially England.
Or don't the same rules apply if one happens to be English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish.
/// As an example, someone from New York has the option of saying "I'm a New Yorker" or "I'm American" and both would be true. ///
And as would someone from London has the option of saying "I'm a Londoner" would also be true.
So I can't really see your point.
/// Also, I don't ever remember it being used specifically in relation to people from Pakistan. It was a derogatory term for anyone 'Asian-looking', which included Indians. ///
No I think you are wrong there, surely it is anyone Indian looking i.e.coming from the Indian sub-continent.
You can be Chinese and 'Asian Looking' but could not be confused with someone from Pakistan.
As would be anyone who was European could not be classed a 'Brit' which is also a derogatory word for any one from Britain especially England.
Or don't the same rules apply if one happens to be English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish.
““How on earth can you be "proud" of something you've not lifted a finger to achieve”
What a strange viewpoint, jake. If your mother, father or sibling showed outstanding qualities in a particular field would you not be proud of them, even though you’d “not lifted a finger” to help them in their achievements? Surely pride does not only stem from one’s own achievements.
How often do we hear “Scotland (say) is a proud nation”? Or what about those who are proud of their black skin? It seems that when the English suggest that they, too, have something to be proud of (similarly merely by accident of birth) accusations of jingoism, xenophobia and even racism abound. Of course, as sp correctly points out, England is not an independent nation state. But neither is Scotland, nor is Yorkshire ( a county full of proud folk). That does not stop people from Scotland or Yorkshire being proud of their roots.
Of course what happens in those areas to make people more or less proud of their origins is an ongoing process and a topic perhaps best left for a different question.
What a strange viewpoint, jake. If your mother, father or sibling showed outstanding qualities in a particular field would you not be proud of them, even though you’d “not lifted a finger” to help them in their achievements? Surely pride does not only stem from one’s own achievements.
How often do we hear “Scotland (say) is a proud nation”? Or what about those who are proud of their black skin? It seems that when the English suggest that they, too, have something to be proud of (similarly merely by accident of birth) accusations of jingoism, xenophobia and even racism abound. Of course, as sp correctly points out, England is not an independent nation state. But neither is Scotland, nor is Yorkshire ( a county full of proud folk). That does not stop people from Scotland or Yorkshire being proud of their roots.
Of course what happens in those areas to make people more or less proud of their origins is an ongoing process and a topic perhaps best left for a different question.
jake-the-peg
/// How on earth can you be "proud" of something you've not lifted a finger to achieve ///
You may have not and that is no surprise, but there are many English people who have served and defended this country, also worked hard and paid their taxes, so as to make this a country where it is worth feeling proud to be English.
/// If you've been kicked, spat on while someone yells "Pakki" in your face the term becomes pretty offensive. ///
Do you know of any Pakistanis who have, or is it just an urban myth.
I bet there are many English people who have suffered much worse, but somehow one does not hear about them.
Incidentally isn't the term 'Native' on par with 'Savage'?
/// How on earth can you be "proud" of something you've not lifted a finger to achieve ///
You may have not and that is no surprise, but there are many English people who have served and defended this country, also worked hard and paid their taxes, so as to make this a country where it is worth feeling proud to be English.
/// If you've been kicked, spat on while someone yells "Pakki" in your face the term becomes pretty offensive. ///
Do you know of any Pakistanis who have, or is it just an urban myth.
I bet there are many English people who have suffered much worse, but somehow one does not hear about them.
Incidentally isn't the term 'Native' on par with 'Savage'?
AOG
NO - if someone was described to me as Asian, I think of India, Pakistan etc.
If someone was described as South East Asian, then my mind goes to China, Japan etc.
Re: my point about New Yorkers and your subsequent post about Londoners - what the analogy reveals is that both can be true of a person at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive.but they are not the same.
Many Americans I talk to get the two mixed up.
Just a thought - couldn't one say that British is a nationality whereas English is an ethnicity (as pointed out by MarkRae earlier).
Your passport may state that you are British, but the way you feel is English.
NO - if someone was described to me as Asian, I think of India, Pakistan etc.
If someone was described as South East Asian, then my mind goes to China, Japan etc.
Re: my point about New Yorkers and your subsequent post about Londoners - what the analogy reveals is that both can be true of a person at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive.but they are not the same.
Many Americans I talk to get the two mixed up.
Just a thought - couldn't one say that British is a nationality whereas English is an ethnicity (as pointed out by MarkRae earlier).
Your passport may state that you are British, but the way you feel is English.
AOG
Put yourself in this situation.
You're in a queue waiting to be served in a cake shop. An Asian man is in front of you and as he's about to be served, his phone rings and he answers it.
He finishes the call, buys a cake and then leaves.
A minute later, you notice his phone has been placed on the counter and so you pick it up and hurry to the shop front.
If someone walked in at that point, would you say, "Did you just see a pakki? Do you know where he went?"
My guess is that you would use the world Asian, or if he had another overriding physical trait (eg. he were a dwarf, transvestite or a centaur), you would refer to him thusly.
Put yourself in this situation.
You're in a queue waiting to be served in a cake shop. An Asian man is in front of you and as he's about to be served, his phone rings and he answers it.
He finishes the call, buys a cake and then leaves.
A minute later, you notice his phone has been placed on the counter and so you pick it up and hurry to the shop front.
If someone walked in at that point, would you say, "Did you just see a pakki? Do you know where he went?"
My guess is that you would use the world Asian, or if he had another overriding physical trait (eg. he were a dwarf, transvestite or a centaur), you would refer to him thusly.
MarkRae
If it were an electric blue coat with diamanté detailing, perhaps.
If I were in a small market town near Aberdeen and I'd seen no other Asian men, then I would describe him as Asian, because that would be his most obvious physical characteristic.
If I were in Mumbai, I would of course, think of something else.
If it were an electric blue coat with diamanté detailing, perhaps.
If I were in a small market town near Aberdeen and I'd seen no other Asian men, then I would describe him as Asian, because that would be his most obvious physical characteristic.
If I were in Mumbai, I would of course, think of something else.
I was born in England, to parents both of whom were also born in England. Despite that, I do not automatically think of myself as English - I class myself as British.
The Kingdom of Great Britain has been around for about 310 years or so, and the United Kingdom of of Great Britain and Ireland since the Act of Union, passed in ermm 1801? - so about 210 years or so. Why would I wish to identify myself as part of a subset of GB, when its events within Britains history that are worth celebrating and being proud of. The whole of the Union is greater than merely the sum of its parts.
I am proud of at least some of the achievements of Britain. Thats why attempting to identify yourself with some subset, even if it is the dominant partner, just seems needlessly nationalistic to me.
I can understand why the Welsh, Scottish, and Irish may wish to assert their national identity - there are some significant native language and cultural differences there that have been eroded, even actively suppressed, over time, and, for those cultures, many will have long memories about armed invasions, incursions, and violent suppression of rebellion. A member of a minority will always be sensitive and proud of their heritage.
The English have no such concerns, it seems to me.
As for the Pakistani / Brit thing - It may well be true that some Asian minorities are not offended by being called "***" - but for many ,many others, they will - because over the years, it has become an epithet of abuse, and become associated with racist attitudes. To attempt to equate the use of the word "Brit", largely a shorthand term from mostly americans, in my experience, is facile - the 2 are not equivalent because of the weight of racism associated with the shorthand version of Pakistani.
Celebrate the overall direction and many world beating achievements of Great Britain as a proud Briton, rather than diminishing yourself by classifying yourself as merely English..........
The Kingdom of Great Britain has been around for about 310 years or so, and the United Kingdom of of Great Britain and Ireland since the Act of Union, passed in ermm 1801? - so about 210 years or so. Why would I wish to identify myself as part of a subset of GB, when its events within Britains history that are worth celebrating and being proud of. The whole of the Union is greater than merely the sum of its parts.
I am proud of at least some of the achievements of Britain. Thats why attempting to identify yourself with some subset, even if it is the dominant partner, just seems needlessly nationalistic to me.
I can understand why the Welsh, Scottish, and Irish may wish to assert their national identity - there are some significant native language and cultural differences there that have been eroded, even actively suppressed, over time, and, for those cultures, many will have long memories about armed invasions, incursions, and violent suppression of rebellion. A member of a minority will always be sensitive and proud of their heritage.
The English have no such concerns, it seems to me.
As for the Pakistani / Brit thing - It may well be true that some Asian minorities are not offended by being called "***" - but for many ,many others, they will - because over the years, it has become an epithet of abuse, and become associated with racist attitudes. To attempt to equate the use of the word "Brit", largely a shorthand term from mostly americans, in my experience, is facile - the 2 are not equivalent because of the weight of racism associated with the shorthand version of Pakistani.
Celebrate the overall direction and many world beating achievements of Great Britain as a proud Briton, rather than diminishing yourself by classifying yourself as merely English..........
I certainly am not proud to be English.
As for Brits, it may be American or it may be an analogy with Scots, as someone suggested. But there's no useful alternative. Britons just won't do: they're the people who were here before the Romans, and that's what everyone thinks they were too - ancient Britons. Modern Brits are a very different people.
As for Brits, it may be American or it may be an analogy with Scots, as someone suggested. But there's no useful alternative. Britons just won't do: they're the people who were here before the Romans, and that's what everyone thinks they were too - ancient Britons. Modern Brits are a very different people.
Personally, I don't particularly look down my nose at national identity. Neither do I look up to it. I think it's an unfortunate byproduct of the modern world - but it is a cultural construction which is important to some people and, on average, is fairly harmless. It's an imagined community like any other - and the rising importance of these kinds of identity is simply a fact of the modern world.
Having said that, it is not something I buy into. I am not a patriot and find the concept rather alienating. I also find the idea of 'instilling' national pride in people (almost invariably said in context of educating children) sinister and manipulative.
With regard to AOG's question - I don't see that identifying yourself as 'English' is any more vague than identifying yourself as 'British'. So if that's how people want to think of themselves, then I don't really see the problem.
Having said that, it is not something I buy into. I am not a patriot and find the concept rather alienating. I also find the idea of 'instilling' national pride in people (almost invariably said in context of educating children) sinister and manipulative.
With regard to AOG's question - I don't see that identifying yourself as 'English' is any more vague than identifying yourself as 'British'. So if that's how people want to think of themselves, then I don't really see the problem.
