Are you proud to be English?

[anotheoldgit]

http://namedropping.w...1/08/05/this-england/

Those who are English are constantly called British, why are they trying to wipe the English from the map?

But if some continue to class us as British why do they then shorten this by referring to us as 'Brits'?

If it is offensive to shorten the word of Pakistanis, then surely it is just as offensive to shorten the word of British by calling us 'Brits'?

[Johnysid]

"National pride tends to start international and political pi**in cntests which often end in armed conflict. "

Armed conflict tends to happen over things that people care about. If you care for nothing and relinquish your environment to the commons you will have peace. You will have private affluence and public squalor because no-one cares about the public culture.

[FredPuli43]

"A nation is a lot of people who think they are a nation" was my old history teacher's definition. Not, prima facie, very helpful, but it emphasises the 'tribal' nature of it, of all belonging and acting and thinking accordingly. He was interested how, in history, nations suddenly emerged and equally suddenly disappeared, and nationalism with them. Often a 'nation' disappeared simply because the members of it became part of a larger body of people who all saw themselves as a nation, a bigger tribe. Mercian nationalism seems to have died out ! But if any group remembers , or comes to think of itself as, being Mercian, and sees the rest of its present nation as against it, you never know.

[THECORBYLOON]

"The problem is just that fact, if an American can call [an M & S shop] a 'Brit' shop which of course is not racist at all, why is it racist to call a shop owned by an Asian person a P**i shop.

Nothing sinister going off here just forever seeking a level playing field."

An M & S shop would be British would it not? Are Americans using "Brit" in a derogatory way or do they see it as being friendly?

An Asian shop need not be owned by a Pakistani so why say it is and then make it worse by using an offensive term? If you owned a shop, would you not be offended if folk called it the French shop?

[Kromovaracun]

"although the English and Scots may have thought of themselves as English and Scots when they were British this was just quaint folk memory. Real nationhood depends upon government."

I disagree - nationhood is and always has been about identity, which is a product of economic forces, cultural processes and human psychology largely outside of government. Benedict Anderson famously demonstrated this quite convincingly in his work on print culture and how it lead to the rise of shared languages, and the emergence of shared understanding of time and narrative. The government's relationship to nationhood is largely reactive - governments themselves are products of the given culture and society, not distinct from it.

[FredPuli43]

What is there to make anyone proud to be English? None of us living can take credit for Shakespeare's works, Parliamentary democracy, the English language, the British Empire or anything else not created by our own contributions. It's illogical to be proud of the country, whether that be England or Britain.

[jno]

those who live in England now have contributed, in however small a way, to its culture, FredPuli. If you go to see Romeo and Juliet you help keep Shakespeare's writing alive, even if you didn't write it yourself. (And so on.) I think a modest amount of pride in your country is acceptable... unless of course you don't like it, think all the politicians are thieves, the cuisine is rubbish and the streets dirty. In which case you are equally entitled to feel angry about it and do something about it, which is the flilpside of pride.

[Johnysid]

Kromo.. I think we both agree that nationhood is the interplay of culture and governance. In the very long run it is governance that tends to win but not always. The Holy Roman empire is reforming after a few centuries because of cultural affinities but these affinities are also due to a once united governance. It is the same with the Ummah. Nations have the advantage that culture and peoples can be protected.

[SpikeyBush]

To make reference back to the initial question, I don't find it offensive to be called a Brit when in Dublin, but when I drive past graffiti saying "Brits Out" that is offensive.

[FredPuli43]

Thing is jno, if I go to a Shakespeare play or read his sonnets , I am no more contributing to England and its culture than I am contributing to Germany by hearing Beethoven or reading Goethe, or Ancient Rome by reading Catullus or watching Plautus. I am not proud of those places or their culture; they have nothing to do with me, I have done nothing towards creating the works, I simply enjoy them, with no regard to their origins or to perpetuating them. That some originated in England, at the hands of an English man,is immaterial. I have no pride, however distantly felt, because of it.

[Johnysid]

It is largely the "British" media who have this problem with offensiveness. The Indian press uses the word "Pak" interchangeably with "Pakistani". "***" is almost certainly an old British Raj word because I heard people who had returned from Pakistan use it affectionately when I was young.

If we identify the people who believe "it is offensive to shorten the word of Pakistanis" it will be found that they are postmodernists/poststructuralists in the media. These people are a livid danger to all of us:

"The greatest threat to modern society is from the latest form of extreme socialism, loosely describable as "Postmarxism". It is extremely sophisticated and operates by exacerbating differences within society. This polarisation of society into terrorists/the people, racists/antiracists, working class/capitalists etc. allows them to slowly introduce ever more repressive legislation that removes freedom of speech and action."

Democracy must include the right to free speech even if this offends others. If the speech leads directly to actual physical or financial harm then it is wrong and this has been illegal for centuries (slander, harassment, discrimination in employment etc.).

[emmie]

I am and call myself English, then British. You don't have to be a rabid BNP exponent, or wrap a flag your shoulders to feel it. It's in my bones, DNA, and the same goes for all my family.

[Kromovaracun]

""The greatest threat to modern society is from the latest form of extreme socialism, loosely describable as "Postmarxism". It is extremely sophisticated and operates by exacerbating differences within society. This polarisation of society into terrorists/the people, racists/antiracists, working class/capitalists etc. allows them to slowly introduce ever more repressive legislation that removes freedom of speech and action." "

Is this another quote from your blog?

[RATTER15]

Every single one of us make up this Country, we all make this country what it is today, if you are happy with this country then be proud to be a part of it and be proud of your country.

The people who feel they have contributed nothing to this country to make it what it is, well that's a shame that you wont be able to feel proud, maybe try harder!

[Johnysid]

Kromo.. are you a proponent of limiting speech in the furtherance of political ideals?

[Kromovaracun]

Of course not. In fact I largely agree with your last paragraph. I just think it's strange that you've posted a lengthy quotation apparently as some sort of evidence to support your views without giving any indication as to where it's from. Given you've a track record of using your own blog as evidence, I'm just asking if you're doing that again.

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

/// I take no personal pride in being English / British because it is a fortunate accident of birth. ///

I don't know if you follow your particular town/city sports team, but if you do surely you feel a sense of proud and defend it with all your might, even though it was an accident of birth that you happened to be born in that particular town/city.

The same can go for most other things ie. your school, your school house, your pub's dart team, your church choir, all can attract your pride and devotion, and which you will defend with all of your might.

And yes dare I say it, "you can feel perfectly free to also consider all these superior to any other", without any 'label' being attached to yourself.

[anotheoldgit]

THECORBYLOON

/// If you owned a shop, would you not be offended if folk called it the French shop? ///

Surprised yes at why he though it was a French shop, seeing that I wasn't wearing a striped top, wearing a beret, and didn't sell onions, but I wouldn't in the least bit offended.

[anotheoldgit]

FredPuli43

/// What is there to make anyone proud to be English? None of us living can take credit for Shakespeare's works, Parliamentary democracy, the English language, the British Empire or anything else not created by our own contributions. It's illogical to be proud of the country, whether that be England or Britain. ///

Yes and with an attitude like that, you are helping others to drag England down with you, why not try and contribute to making England a country to be proud of, or go and live in a country which in your view is much better than this land of our forefathers.

[nannybooby]

EM10 ,you said it all and much better than me.

[Johnysid]

I can understand "Answerbank" using *** to blank out the word "***" but in the context of this comment the user of the word would not be racist or offend against any Act of Parliament.

Perhaps we should reflect on how banning "***" or "***" or "***" or "***" or "***" or "***" or "***" or "***" or "***" or "***" or "***" or "***" might actually be a postmodern attack on the freedom of speech and hence on democracy itself. The Left has been exceptionally cunning to mount this postmodern/poststucturalist attack because there is an inevitable spread of the attack through the natural desire of commercial organisations to defend themselves against even the possibility of prosecution.


In answer to Kromo.. "Given you've a track record of using your own blog as evidence.."

I did not use the quotation as "evidence". I used it as a clear exposition of the threat to democracy from postmarxism that hangs over us all. "Political Correctness" is just one aspect of the concerted campaign that has been waged by the far left, especially in the media.