Crosswords5 mins ago
Are they reallly just over here for an apology?
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Moony
you cite one example from dozens
i cited one example from thousands
No one has said that 'only the british should apologise' you invented that.
Mau Mau criminals should apologise too but if you are equating the standards we should expect of ourselves to the standards of those people, you must have a lower opinion of the British than I do.
If you want a 'level playing field' perhaps you can explain why over 1000 kenyans were executed for such crimes (an unprecedented number by any modern colonial standards) and yet, so far as i know, none of the Army or Administration Police who committed atrocities have ever been taken to court.
Surely the injustice of that is apparent to anyone.
Don't confuse 'anti British' with 'honesty, openness and honour'
And don't confuse brainless refusal to accept facts with patriotism.
you cite one example from dozens
i cited one example from thousands
No one has said that 'only the british should apologise' you invented that.
Mau Mau criminals should apologise too but if you are equating the standards we should expect of ourselves to the standards of those people, you must have a lower opinion of the British than I do.
If you want a 'level playing field' perhaps you can explain why over 1000 kenyans were executed for such crimes (an unprecedented number by any modern colonial standards) and yet, so far as i know, none of the Army or Administration Police who committed atrocities have ever been taken to court.
Surely the injustice of that is apparent to anyone.
Don't confuse 'anti British' with 'honesty, openness and honour'
And don't confuse brainless refusal to accept facts with patriotism.
"No one has said that 'only the british should apologise' you invented that"
It's implied by the omission of any balance in your initial argument. You and others paint a picture of British attrocities but offer no lead up or background, like someone making a film you have decided that the British are the bad guys. That's what I'm objecting to, you make it sound like one day the British got up and decided they where going to commit awfulness on the lovely native population. If I saw the movies you'd made I'd think we where the bad guys too!
It's implied by the omission of any balance in your initial argument. You and others paint a picture of British attrocities but offer no lead up or background, like someone making a film you have decided that the British are the bad guys. That's what I'm objecting to, you make it sound like one day the British got up and decided they where going to commit awfulness on the lovely native population. If I saw the movies you'd made I'd think we where the bad guys too!
Moony
perleese
'only the Brits should apologise'
<It's implied by the omission of any balance in your initial argument.>
I implied no such thing. Clearly you inferred that. Perhaps because it fits your standard response whenever these uncomfortable truths are revealed?
<You and others paint a picture of British attrocities but offer no lead up or background, like someone making a film you have decided that the British are the bad guys.>
You don't know what I have decided. I was commenting on the facts pertinent to this court case. No background or 'lead up' changes what we were involved in - not in 123 AD but within our lifetime.
As one serving soldier of the time writes:
"I have to say I was not very proud of the British historical role in Kenya. Although we were not allowed to fraternise with the native community I was able to compile a diary of many discussions with local native nationalists."
In summary, the 'they were bad too' defence isn't very edifying even when it's true.
And, with due respect to danchip and his story about the colleague <scarred with razor wire while his men were butchered>
Our total casualties in the Kenyan Emergency was 12 men.
And <razor wire> wasn't even invented then.
perleese
'only the Brits should apologise'
<It's implied by the omission of any balance in your initial argument.>
I implied no such thing. Clearly you inferred that. Perhaps because it fits your standard response whenever these uncomfortable truths are revealed?
<You and others paint a picture of British attrocities but offer no lead up or background, like someone making a film you have decided that the British are the bad guys.>
You don't know what I have decided. I was commenting on the facts pertinent to this court case. No background or 'lead up' changes what we were involved in - not in 123 AD but within our lifetime.
As one serving soldier of the time writes:
"I have to say I was not very proud of the British historical role in Kenya. Although we were not allowed to fraternise with the native community I was able to compile a diary of many discussions with local native nationalists."
In summary, the 'they were bad too' defence isn't very edifying even when it's true.
And, with due respect to danchip and his story about the colleague <scarred with razor wire while his men were butchered>
Our total casualties in the Kenyan Emergency was 12 men.
And <razor wire> wasn't even invented then.
It is not "anti-British" to expect that we hold ourselves to the highest standards of behaviour as a society, and that goes for those who will be seen as our representatives abroad. After all, these standards are those British values we are supposed to be proud of - If you are genuinely patriotic, you will value and support the notions of fair play, decency,tolerance, democracy,equal opportunity, politeness, the rule of law, correct?
To act as savages or barbarians demeans those who carry out the acts of barbarity, and, if done in our name, demeans and devalues our society and those very values that a patriot should be proud to support.
Its not good enough to whine that "the others did it", and to suggest that its all right for us to act as savages or barbarians in reprisal. Its not good enough to indulge in savagery for the sake of revenge.
Britain was a once powerful nation, who, along with others, played the game of empire building and cultural dominance. We invaded and subjugated nations to feed our desire for influence and resources. In some cases, we treated with the native populations fairly, but all too often we treated them as our cultural inferiors, we brutalised them and tortured them and killed them to retain our dominance, and this will inevitably cause fear, resentment and hatred.
We should hold to a higher standard.Its not OK to sanction brutality by our military, or torture, or worse.And it does not demean Britains international reputation to publically apologise if there are documented cases to answer.
A true patriot would be proud that our society still retains sufficient levels of decency and fair play that we are willing to listen to grievances and give them a fair hearing, in a court of law.
These are things that a true Patriot should rightfully be proud of.
After all,you are better than the Mau Mau,right? Better than the IRA? Better than Al-Quida? Act it then - show your patriotism - stop whining that its not right or fair for us to apologise where fault is proven when they don't!
To act as savages or barbarians demeans those who carry out the acts of barbarity, and, if done in our name, demeans and devalues our society and those very values that a patriot should be proud to support.
Its not good enough to whine that "the others did it", and to suggest that its all right for us to act as savages or barbarians in reprisal. Its not good enough to indulge in savagery for the sake of revenge.
Britain was a once powerful nation, who, along with others, played the game of empire building and cultural dominance. We invaded and subjugated nations to feed our desire for influence and resources. In some cases, we treated with the native populations fairly, but all too often we treated them as our cultural inferiors, we brutalised them and tortured them and killed them to retain our dominance, and this will inevitably cause fear, resentment and hatred.
We should hold to a higher standard.Its not OK to sanction brutality by our military, or torture, or worse.And it does not demean Britains international reputation to publically apologise if there are documented cases to answer.
A true patriot would be proud that our society still retains sufficient levels of decency and fair play that we are willing to listen to grievances and give them a fair hearing, in a court of law.
These are things that a true Patriot should rightfully be proud of.
After all,you are better than the Mau Mau,right? Better than the IRA? Better than Al-Quida? Act it then - show your patriotism - stop whining that its not right or fair for us to apologise where fault is proven when they don't!
MoonRaker
Why must the British always appologise?
Because we were in their country with our soldiers all over it!
Do you think we were invited?
Was there a referendum and everybody said "Let's ask the British to come over and run things?"
There are two sides to every story
One side is invader and one side is invaded
Why must the British always appologise?
Because we were in their country with our soldiers all over it!
Do you think we were invited?
Was there a referendum and everybody said "Let's ask the British to come over and run things?"
There are two sides to every story
One side is invader and one side is invaded
//the QC for the British government, Guy Mansfield, said he did not want to dispute that civilians had suffered "torture and ill-treatment at the hands of the colonial administration".//
In other words, the Brits tortured innocents. Did your mummies never explain to you that "two wrongs don't make a right"?
In other words, the Brits tortured innocents. Did your mummies never explain to you that "two wrongs don't make a right"?
How arrogant is that?
Perhaps you'd like the phrase "White man's burden too"
Civil wars often happen when invaders leave and there's a power vacuum:
And the Colonialists look at it then and pretend that means there's something inherently inferior about the people they were ruling and that justified their actions.
Presumably you'd say the same about Ireland after their bloody civil war after they booted us out in 1921?
Perhaps you'd like the phrase "White man's burden too"
Civil wars often happen when invaders leave and there's a power vacuum:
And the Colonialists look at it then and pretend that means there's something inherently inferior about the people they were ruling and that justified their actions.
Presumably you'd say the same about Ireland after their bloody civil war after they booted us out in 1921?
Moony
no amount of wriggling about, and citing other bad things happening in the World changes the core facts pertinent to this case.
<<the QC for the British government, Guy Mansfield, said he did not want to dispute that civilians had suffered "torture and ill-treatment at the hands of the colonial administration">>
And some of the people who were tortured in our name have had the courage and tenacity to turn up at our Courts of Justice.
Anyone who dares disrespect that is not at heart, truly British.
no amount of wriggling about, and citing other bad things happening in the World changes the core facts pertinent to this case.
<<the QC for the British government, Guy Mansfield, said he did not want to dispute that civilians had suffered "torture and ill-treatment at the hands of the colonial administration">>
And some of the people who were tortured in our name have had the courage and tenacity to turn up at our Courts of Justice.
Anyone who dares disrespect that is not at heart, truly British.
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