Are they reallly just over here for an apology?

[pdq1]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18874040

What next....South African natives involved in the Boar War

[Zeuhl]

<<Just read their posts on here. Sickening.>>

Baz

posts of facts and historical information only sicken two types of person

Liars and sociopaths

Which one do you favour?

[jake-the-peg]

I think you'll find zeuhl that this issue implies criticism of British armed forces.

Certain people can't bear to countenance anything like that.

A buch of squaddies could turn up and shoot their wives and they'd tell the papers that there were two sides to every story

[MoonRocker]

This is the same argument that means we are continually being pestered to apologise for bombing the Germans, during WWII! Must we always fight with one arm tied behind our backs so our legions of hand wringers can feel better?

[jake-the-peg]

No it's a different argument

We hadn't colonised Germany

Did IQ's suddenly drop around here or are you deliberately trying to muddy the waters now you're losing the argument?

[Zeuhl]

Moony

Changing the subject again?

OK.
I know an ex member of Bomber Command who hates the 'atrocities' he took part in in WWII, deliberately bombing civilians in cities with no military targets.

But he accepts it was part of our winning the war and has to live with it.

Not sure why anyone would think that negates these kenyans entitlement to justice.

[MoonRocker]

No just trying to understand the anti British approach by extending the parameters to try and understand why the British alone are singled out for this sort of thing.

[LazyGun]

@Moon - Please explain how expecting us to behave like a civilised society, one to be proud of, is remotely anti- British?

[Zeuhl]

<<why the British alone are singled out for this sort of thing. >>

Who says they are?

I think you'll find Mau Mau attrocities were referenced in detail earlier by a few of us, me included.

I've checked in Yellow Pages for my local branch of The Robert Mugabe Appreciation Society and can't find one.
Nor the Pol Pot Fan Club or talks on 'Why Stalin was a great humanitarian'

I've even seen some quite harsh language levelled at the Afrikaaners, Japanese POW guards and Americans for carpet bombing large portions of South East Asia.

So don't feel too picked on just because of this one case.

[Johnysid]

There is an analysis of this problem at http://pol-check.blog...-limits-of-legal.html

"..if any government accepts this equivalence between actions fifty five years ago and personal actions five years ago then the Hague is undermined and Human Rights abusers can escape justice."

[Johnysid]

LazyGun - I have got no connection with this Mau Mau case any more than I, or my countrymen are to "blame" for invading Wales. This mistake is known as "historical presentism".

[Zeuhl]

This is semantics, but I also dislike the notion of 'apologising' for things 'we' didn't do.

I think 'acknowledgements' and 'regrets' are appropriate.

After all, I acknowledge the Nazi Holocaust took place and I regret that it did but I'm pretty sure it wasn't my fault.

[Johnysid]

No, I am absolutely opposed to States admitting current responsibility for historical crimes. There should be a limitation at 25 years. If we do not have such a limitation any present day villain, such as Kenyatta (see link above) can claim that their actions are no worse than those of any other administration.

[Zeuhl]

Who is that a reply to Johny

It seems to be a non sequitur

[emmie]

how do our old soldiers or their families get recompense from the Japanese, they were treated appallingly. Those that survived often died on returning back to Britain, due to the malnourishment and ill treatment they had received
Not even an apology as far as i am aware. The same can be said for the chinese women who were used as sex slaves by the Japanese soldiers.
Of course this was war time, but is that any excuse. No geneva convention that one could see.

I am not condoning what happened, but perhaps some should look at what they did to their own people, where thousands died, taking aside the white settlers who were also murdered.
Should compensation be paid, don't know, but if it happens what is to say that thousands more will come out, from all sorts of places and demand the same.

[Johnysid]

Zeuhl, I am against the modern British State acknowledging or regretting a "British" crime, even if one were committed, if that crime is over 25 years old. British politicians should condemn the use of torture by people in those times and join in requests for those people who were responsible to be brought to trial if that is appropriate, even if those people were members of the British Government at that time.

[Brinjal]

Some loyal domestic workers were so fond of their employers that they couldnt kill them. They made agreements with their friends to kill eachothers employers so that way the didnt have to look the baas and madam and children in the face when they were killed. True fact not made up not a joke.

[bazwillrun]

Same old apologists with the same old support anyone but UK attitude.

[anotheoldgit]

Zeuhl

/// these victims are still with us ///

And so are the victims of the Mau Mau at least those that are still alive to tell the tale.

Unlike you Zeuhl we are old enough to remember.

[anotheoldgit]

Zeuhi

/// I've even seen some quite harsh language levelled at the Afrikaaners, Japanese POW guards and Americans for carpet bombing large portions of South East Asia. ///

Blimey I did not know that any Afrikaners, or Japanese POW guards, carpet bombed large portions of South East Asia.

I must be loosing my memory or not reading the same history books as you.

[Zeuhl]

<<One of the three to take the stand was Paulo Nzili, 85. In his 20-page witness statement, he gave excruciating details of how he was castrated at Embakasi detention camp by a white settler called Mr. Dunman and nicknamed Luvai, which in Mr. Nzili’s Kikamba language means “merciless person.”

“They tied both of my legs with chains and … pinned down both my hands. Then Luvai approached me with a pair of pliers which were more than a foot long and castrated me”>>

Response from creatures like bazwillrun:

<Same old apologists with the same old support anyone but UK attitude.>

What a despicable and nauseating excuse for an opinion!

Old Git

<And so are the victims of the Mau Mau at least those that are still alive to tell the tale.

Unlike you Zeuhl we are old enough to remember.>

Does your memory actually stretch to appreciating the disparities in casualties itemised in some of the posts above?

I appreciate that it was a long time ago and you were subjected to considerable propoganda at the time which will have given you a particular perspective but you now have the opportunity to gain a more intelligent and accurate perspective.