Sunday Express Skeleton 24Th November...
Crosswords1 min ago
Hilsborough: What Do We Expect?
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Today, over 23 years after the worst sporting related disaster in British history, an 18 month report on all collated paperwork etc will be released to the families of deceased and the public.
Will it finally bring closure - or not? Obviously the dead can't be brought back, but does anyone believe that the full facts will be laid bare?
***N.B.*** NO FLIPPANT REPLIES, PLEASE ***
http://
Today, over 23 years after the worst sporting related disaster in British history, an 18 month report on all collated paperwork etc will be released to the families of deceased and the public.
Will it finally bring closure - or not? Obviously the dead can't be brought back, but does anyone believe that the full facts will be laid bare?
***N.B.*** NO FLIPPANT REPLIES, PLEASE ***
Answers
The truth would be nice and an acceptance from all sides that fault will most probably lie across the board as is the case in most accidents.
Seeking to blame one groups be it the Police or the fans is clearly wrong. Policing and some of the reasons for 'fans' being there were very different then.
Seeking to blame one groups be it the Police or the fans is clearly wrong. Policing and some of the reasons for 'fans' being there were very different then.
07:19 Wed 12th Sep 2012
the report says Liverpool fans weren't to blame - "neither caused nor contributed to" the deaths.
"A forensic independent review has concluded that the main cause of the Hillsborough disaster that caused the deaths of 96 men, women and children was a "failure in police control" but has also revealed "multiple failures" within other organisations that compromised crowd safety.
More than 23 years after the disaster claimed 96 lives and following a two year review of around 450,000 unrestricted documents relating to the disaster, the Hillsborough Independent Panel has underlined the "clear operational failure" that led to the disaster and the attempts by South Yorkshire Police and the ambulance service to cover up their shortcomings.
The fact that the ambulance service also altered statements from staff is revealed for the first time. The evidence shows "conclusively" that Liverpool fans "neither caused nor contributed to the deaths" and shows the extent to which attempts, endorsed by the SYP chief constable Peter Wright, were made to smear them."
So... do you accept this finding? Or are you too only going to be happy with a report that confirms what you already believe?
"A forensic independent review has concluded that the main cause of the Hillsborough disaster that caused the deaths of 96 men, women and children was a "failure in police control" but has also revealed "multiple failures" within other organisations that compromised crowd safety.
More than 23 years after the disaster claimed 96 lives and following a two year review of around 450,000 unrestricted documents relating to the disaster, the Hillsborough Independent Panel has underlined the "clear operational failure" that led to the disaster and the attempts by South Yorkshire Police and the ambulance service to cover up their shortcomings.
The fact that the ambulance service also altered statements from staff is revealed for the first time. The evidence shows "conclusively" that Liverpool fans "neither caused nor contributed to the deaths" and shows the extent to which attempts, endorsed by the SYP chief constable Peter Wright, were made to smear them."
So... do you accept this finding? Or are you too only going to be happy with a report that confirms what you already believe?
so turning up en-masse drunk and without tickets at the last minute had nothing to do with it? Hmmm
I suspect this report, which I suspect has been done to put a lid on the matter, will not help really. It is obviouls some (even if little) blame does lie with some 'fans'. To make them seem whiter than white just makes this report look like a whitewash the other way, ie give them what they want and they will shut up and go away.
I suspect this report, which I suspect has been done to put a lid on the matter, will not help really. It is obviouls some (even if little) blame does lie with some 'fans'. To make them seem whiter than white just makes this report look like a whitewash the other way, ie give them what they want and they will shut up and go away.
We have to accept the findings, however, brief media reports obviously cannot spell out every word of every document and I'm slightly concerned about emotive statements in Parliament by Cameron defending his heroine Maggie Thatcher by stating that she was told, quote "...the Police version of events was defensive bordering on deceitful..."
Such claims immediately tend to exonerate the Thatcher Govt of the day by simply blaming one agency for what happened. Anyway, the whole report - for anyone interested - is apparently on the BBC website.
Personally I'm still reserving judgement because I cannot accept that sole responsibility for what happened can be blamed simply on the Police, part guilty though they may have been. Let's see what transpires once the dust has settles and some other information is known?
Such claims immediately tend to exonerate the Thatcher Govt of the day by simply blaming one agency for what happened. Anyway, the whole report - for anyone interested - is apparently on the BBC website.
Personally I'm still reserving judgement because I cannot accept that sole responsibility for what happened can be blamed simply on the Police, part guilty though they may have been. Let's see what transpires once the dust has settles and some other information is known?
This 'altering of statements' claim is far too vague because alterations can be made for very innocent reasons but it's being made to sound as if it was all sinister and illicit. Unless anyone can determine WHAT was allegedly altered to WHAT, then I will remain skeptical about the insinuations being made in these reports.
ladybird,
Yes, the Police are always there to be shot at - sometimes justifiably, lots of times not - but it is extremely unusual to hear the ambulance service standing accused, and as for coroners offices to also be in the firing line is virtually unheard of.
I'd love to know how these conclusions were reached and on what evidential basis, in other words we really need specifics instead of fairly nebulous statements which appear to be the case at this stage.
Yes, the Police are always there to be shot at - sometimes justifiably, lots of times not - but it is extremely unusual to hear the ambulance service standing accused, and as for coroners offices to also be in the firing line is virtually unheard of.
I'd love to know how these conclusions were reached and on what evidential basis, in other words we really need specifics instead of fairly nebulous statements which appear to be the case at this stage.
<so turning up en-masse drunk and without tickets at the last minute had nothing to do with it?>
as you rightly explain maf, that probably had little to do with the disaster, after all, that often happens at large events, then and now, but people don't die.
people make mistakes, even police officers, but it's a shame that so many of them were prepared to lie about their actions afterwards. Not only to protect their own asses but to shift blame onto the victims.
If I demonstrated such criminal irresponsibility in regard to my employees and then fabricated evidence to hide it I would probably be jailed.
as you rightly explain maf, that probably had little to do with the disaster, after all, that often happens at large events, then and now, but people don't die.
people make mistakes, even police officers, but it's a shame that so many of them were prepared to lie about their actions afterwards. Not only to protect their own asses but to shift blame onto the victims.
If I demonstrated such criminal irresponsibility in regard to my employees and then fabricated evidence to hide it I would probably be jailed.
Zeuhl,
Do you really think that it has taken 23 years to discover, as you put it, "..so many of them (Police) were prepared to lie about their actions afterwards" ? That may be your way of putting it but it's far from the truth.
I mean, are you seriously suggesting that perhaps dozens of Officers deliberately colluded in the wake of such a horrific tragedy and conspired to simply make up packs of lies in order to try to shift the blame onto the fans?
I would have expected those to be the actions of the likes of the KGB, or the old East German 'Stasi' and reprobates such as those, but are you comfortable about making such an accusation against many Police Officers over here? Because if you are, then I'm moving to North Korea!
Do you really think that it has taken 23 years to discover, as you put it, "..so many of them (Police) were prepared to lie about their actions afterwards" ? That may be your way of putting it but it's far from the truth.
I mean, are you seriously suggesting that perhaps dozens of Officers deliberately colluded in the wake of such a horrific tragedy and conspired to simply make up packs of lies in order to try to shift the blame onto the fans?
I would have expected those to be the actions of the likes of the KGB, or the old East German 'Stasi' and reprobates such as those, but are you comfortable about making such an accusation against many Police Officers over here? Because if you are, then I'm moving to North Korea!
Kerosene - I'd love to know how these conclusions were reached and on what evidential basis... - here's the full report for you http://
what Caemeron said:
"The Report finds that this [the Sun report] was part of police efforts - and I quote - 'to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on - allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence.'
In terms of changing the record of events, we already know that police reports were significantly altered but the full extent was not drawn to Lord Justice Taylor's attention.
Today's Report finds that 164 statements were significantly amended - and 116 explicitly removed negative comments about the policing operation - including its lack of leadership.
The report also makes important findings about particular actions taken by the police and coroner while investigating the deaths.
There is new evidence which shows that police officers carried out police national computer checks on those who had died in an attempt - and I quote from the report - 'to impugn the reputations of the deceased'.
The Coroner took blood alcohol levels from all of the deceased including children.
The Panel finds no rationale whatsoever for what it regards as an 'exceptional' decision.
The report states clearly that the attempt of the inquest to draw a link between blood alcohol and late arrival was 'fundamentally flawed'.
And that alcohol consumption was 'unremarkable and not exceptional for a social or leisure occasion'
"The Report finds that this [the Sun report] was part of police efforts - and I quote - 'to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on - allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence.'
In terms of changing the record of events, we already know that police reports were significantly altered but the full extent was not drawn to Lord Justice Taylor's attention.
Today's Report finds that 164 statements were significantly amended - and 116 explicitly removed negative comments about the policing operation - including its lack of leadership.
The report also makes important findings about particular actions taken by the police and coroner while investigating the deaths.
There is new evidence which shows that police officers carried out police national computer checks on those who had died in an attempt - and I quote from the report - 'to impugn the reputations of the deceased'.
The Coroner took blood alcohol levels from all of the deceased including children.
The Panel finds no rationale whatsoever for what it regards as an 'exceptional' decision.
The report states clearly that the attempt of the inquest to draw a link between blood alcohol and late arrival was 'fundamentally flawed'.
And that alcohol consumption was 'unremarkable and not exceptional for a social or leisure occasion'
kero
we need to remember that no police officer in the UK has ever been brought to book for any of the many suspicious 'deaths in custody'
are you in the police? or ex? or know some?
My daughter knows a few and whilst they have many redeeming qualities scrupulousness or a respect for the truth are not among them.
we need to remember that no police officer in the UK has ever been brought to book for any of the many suspicious 'deaths in custody'
are you in the police? or ex? or know some?
My daughter knows a few and whilst they have many redeeming qualities scrupulousness or a respect for the truth are not among them.
>>"anyone who was ever a football hooligan" is to blame for Hillsborough? That's ludicrously wide.
I did not say that.
But the wide spread hooliganism in football led to the caging of fans.
If there had been no cages at that match there would have been no tragedy.
So every football hooligan, even if in a VERY SMALL WAY, brought about the situation of caging that led to the tragedy, so must take part of the blame.
I did not say that.
But the wide spread hooliganism in football led to the caging of fans.
If there had been no cages at that match there would have been no tragedy.
So every football hooligan, even if in a VERY SMALL WAY, brought about the situation of caging that led to the tragedy, so must take part of the blame.
According to Cameron's statement in the Commons, there is no blame attached to hooliganism, drunkenness, thieving from dead bodies etc, etc.
And although I only heard snippets of his statement he seems to put it at the feet of the Sun newspaper, the police, and the original inquest and inquiry findings, I wonder if anyone will be taken to book over these alleged misdemeanour's?
When asked, Cameron could give no assurances that the complete files on this tragedy would ever become available to the general public.
And although I only heard snippets of his statement he seems to put it at the feet of the Sun newspaper, the police, and the original inquest and inquiry findings, I wonder if anyone will be taken to book over these alleged misdemeanour's?
When asked, Cameron could give no assurances that the complete files on this tragedy would ever become available to the general public.
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