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Hilsborough: What Do We Expect?
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Today, over 23 years after the worst sporting related disaster in British history, an 18 month report on all collated paperwork etc will be released to the families of deceased and the public.
Will it finally bring closure - or not? Obviously the dead can't be brought back, but does anyone believe that the full facts will be laid bare?
***N.B.*** NO FLIPPANT REPLIES, PLEASE ***
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Today, over 23 years after the worst sporting related disaster in British history, an 18 month report on all collated paperwork etc will be released to the families of deceased and the public.
Will it finally bring closure - or not? Obviously the dead can't be brought back, but does anyone believe that the full facts will be laid bare?
***N.B.*** NO FLIPPANT REPLIES, PLEASE ***
Answers
The truth would be nice and an acceptance from all sides that fault will most probably lie across the board as is the case in most accidents.
Seeking to blame one groups be it the Police or the fans is clearly wrong. Policing and some of the reasons for 'fans' being there were very different then.
Seeking to blame one groups be it the Police or the fans is clearly wrong. Policing and some of the reasons for 'fans' being there were very different then.
07:19 Wed 12th Sep 2012
Yes, sandy,
There have been many allegations to that effect since that tragic day, but my guess is that regardless of what revelations come out of this, not everyone's going to agree, are they?
I was sitting watching Grandstand that fateful afternoon and watched it unfold and felt totally helpless of course not being able to help in any way.
My gut feeling is that it was a whole combination of factors which led to what happened and I honestly believe that even this comprehensive report won't 'put it to bed'.
There have been many allegations to that effect since that tragic day, but my guess is that regardless of what revelations come out of this, not everyone's going to agree, are they?
I was sitting watching Grandstand that fateful afternoon and watched it unfold and felt totally helpless of course not being able to help in any way.
My gut feeling is that it was a whole combination of factors which led to what happened and I honestly believe that even this comprehensive report won't 'put it to bed'.
I have been at football matches at Hampden Park where the attendance was 134,000. There used to be crushes on the way in and particularly on the way out as everyone rushed to leave. I was very young at the time and was terrified. It's a miracle that we didn't have a similar disaster then.
Similarly, I remember being at a certain football match in England one day which happened to be the final game of the season. The home team won promotion and the inevitable happened at the final whistle - a pitch invasion. The Police had absolutely no chance of preventing that as they must have been outnumbered by about 100 to 1. All they could do was stand and watch.
Similarly, I remember being at a certain football match in England one day which happened to be the final game of the season. The home team won promotion and the inevitable happened at the final whistle - a pitch invasion. The Police had absolutely no chance of preventing that as they must have been outnumbered by about 100 to 1. All they could do was stand and watch.
These accidents were disasters in waiting - I can remember being at Murrayfield for Scotland-Wales when tickets were liberally thrown around by the SFU (we at Uni had a box arrive with some 750 tickets alone) - they reckoned that there were some 125k people in the stadium that day. The next year, when proper ticketing was put in place, the England game felt totally different - you could actually breathe and have a drink, the individual space around you feeling like a sports field.
All seating has helped in preventing this as well.
So technically not much can be done; the issue is whether the fans are exonerated and that may take some time to emerge given there are 1/2 million pieces of documentation
All seating has helped in preventing this as well.
So technically not much can be done; the issue is whether the fans are exonerated and that may take some time to emerge given there are 1/2 million pieces of documentation
I remember sitting in front of the TV watching this unfold and horrified at what I saw. They never mentioned how many had died on Grandstand, only that some "bodies" had been seen
But as soon as the news started after Grandstand they gave out the first figures of deaths and I remember being shocked and upset at the numbers killed.
Often tragedies like this are caused by a number of factors so it is impossible to lay the blame at the door of one group or one person.
Problems at the time included:
Football Grounds: I am old enough to remember the awful state of football ground then. Many had been built in the 1800s or early 1900s and had hardly been updated since. Many were badly designed (or NOT designed) with no regard for the safety of people inside the ground or "crowd control". Many were accidents waiting to happen.
Hooligans: We had a terrible problems with hooligans then, crowds of mostly young men causing problems both inside and outside grounds, making going to football a dangerous and unpleasant thing. This resulted in fences round the pitch and fans being treated like cattle. Again an accident waiting to happen.
Going without a ticket: It has to be said that many Liverpool fans went there without a ticket and whereas they would normally not get in, it seems in this case doors were opened to let loads of fans rush in who had no tickets. With the crush already in the ground, and the caged areas, this again was an accident waiting to happen.
The police. It seems the police made a decision to open the doors, not realising the impact this would have inside the ground. With the ground already packed for a semi final this was a terrible terrible decision and one they probably realised was a mistake as soon as they made it.
The FA and Government. These problems has been going on for years and little was done. It needed a tragedy like this for the governemt and FA to make major changes. But often it needs a tragedy to get things done, just a shame so many died on the day to get these changes made.
So I think the "blame" can be spread around all sorts of people:
- anyone who was ever a football hooligan
- owners of football clubs who never updated their grounds
- Liverpool fans who went without a ticket and tried to get in
- The police who did not manage the crowd well enough on the day
- The FA and governemt, for allowing all these problems to carry on for years until we had this terrible tragedy, and only then decided to do something about it.
But as soon as the news started after Grandstand they gave out the first figures of deaths and I remember being shocked and upset at the numbers killed.
Often tragedies like this are caused by a number of factors so it is impossible to lay the blame at the door of one group or one person.
Problems at the time included:
Football Grounds: I am old enough to remember the awful state of football ground then. Many had been built in the 1800s or early 1900s and had hardly been updated since. Many were badly designed (or NOT designed) with no regard for the safety of people inside the ground or "crowd control". Many were accidents waiting to happen.
Hooligans: We had a terrible problems with hooligans then, crowds of mostly young men causing problems both inside and outside grounds, making going to football a dangerous and unpleasant thing. This resulted in fences round the pitch and fans being treated like cattle. Again an accident waiting to happen.
Going without a ticket: It has to be said that many Liverpool fans went there without a ticket and whereas they would normally not get in, it seems in this case doors were opened to let loads of fans rush in who had no tickets. With the crush already in the ground, and the caged areas, this again was an accident waiting to happen.
The police. It seems the police made a decision to open the doors, not realising the impact this would have inside the ground. With the ground already packed for a semi final this was a terrible terrible decision and one they probably realised was a mistake as soon as they made it.
The FA and Government. These problems has been going on for years and little was done. It needed a tragedy like this for the governemt and FA to make major changes. But often it needs a tragedy to get things done, just a shame so many died on the day to get these changes made.
So I think the "blame" can be spread around all sorts of people:
- anyone who was ever a football hooligan
- owners of football clubs who never updated their grounds
- Liverpool fans who went without a ticket and tried to get in
- The police who did not manage the crowd well enough on the day
- The FA and governemt, for allowing all these problems to carry on for years until we had this terrible tragedy, and only then decided to do something about it.
The truth would be nice and an acceptance from all sides that fault will most probably lie across the board as is the case in most accidents.
Seeking to blame one groups be it the Police or the fans is clearly wrong. Policing and some of the reasons for 'fans' being there were very different then.
Although most difficult for those that lost loved ones perhaps a comfort that things have greatly improved over the years.
Seeking to blame one groups be it the Police or the fans is clearly wrong. Policing and some of the reasons for 'fans' being there were very different then.
Although most difficult for those that lost loved ones perhaps a comfort that things have greatly improved over the years.
I lost a close childhood friend at the Ibrox disaster in 1971 where 66 people perished. I remember my feeling of loss so God knows what close family members must have gone through either from that disaster, then Bradford in 1985?, and of course Hillsborough.
The disquieting thing in my opinion has been the numerous calls right across the board, not just from family members, but from people in high ranking office, to just hold the Police accountable and be done with it?
I'm able - hopefully - to be a bit more objective and my opinion is that there were far too many contributory factors involved that no one individual, or group(s), can solely be expected to carry the can for what happened. I do believe that it was a combination of things which in no way exonerates the Police, but which puts many others 'in the dock' as well.
The disquieting thing in my opinion has been the numerous calls right across the board, not just from family members, but from people in high ranking office, to just hold the Police accountable and be done with it?
I'm able - hopefully - to be a bit more objective and my opinion is that there were far too many contributory factors involved that no one individual, or group(s), can solely be expected to carry the can for what happened. I do believe that it was a combination of things which in no way exonerates the Police, but which puts many others 'in the dock' as well.
jno,
Re the 'football hooligan' thing, I think there's a valid, if perhaps very unsubtle, point being made. Re Hillsborough, I believe that many, if not all, of the victims died from being crushed or smothered? The reason for that is because people were caged like cattle in enclosures/pens simply because of the hooliganism/violence associated with the game in those days.
Many opinions over the 23 years since have more or less tried to lay the blame firmly at the feet of the Police and no one else. I am not for a second trying to exonerate them, but there were numerous factors, as well as the Police, which contributed to that disaster.
For example, it's frowned upon big time to even breathe a suggestion of fault on the part of any Liverpool fans that day, and, notwithstanding the tragedy of 96 dead and many injured, both physically and psychologically, that is one facet of the causes in my opinion, i.e. the clamour of many hundreds of fans, some apparently very drunk, apparently turning up almost at the last minute to demand entry.
My last comments will undoubtedly upset - even outrage - some, but I'm trying to be as objective as possible.
Re the 'football hooligan' thing, I think there's a valid, if perhaps very unsubtle, point being made. Re Hillsborough, I believe that many, if not all, of the victims died from being crushed or smothered? The reason for that is because people were caged like cattle in enclosures/pens simply because of the hooliganism/violence associated with the game in those days.
Many opinions over the 23 years since have more or less tried to lay the blame firmly at the feet of the Police and no one else. I am not for a second trying to exonerate them, but there were numerous factors, as well as the Police, which contributed to that disaster.
For example, it's frowned upon big time to even breathe a suggestion of fault on the part of any Liverpool fans that day, and, notwithstanding the tragedy of 96 dead and many injured, both physically and psychologically, that is one facet of the causes in my opinion, i.e. the clamour of many hundreds of fans, some apparently very drunk, apparently turning up almost at the last minute to demand entry.
My last comments will undoubtedly upset - even outrage - some, but I'm trying to be as objective as possible.
I agree you cannot single out a particular group to point the finger at.
But one group I hardly ever hear mentioned are the fools who sat round a table and decided it was a good idea to put football fans in cages.
Colin Moynihan was sports minister at the time, I have seen his name linked with bringing about all seater stadiums ....but who were the men/women who came up with the ludicrous idea to cage supporters in?
But one group I hardly ever hear mentioned are the fools who sat round a table and decided it was a good idea to put football fans in cages.
Colin Moynihan was sports minister at the time, I have seen his name linked with bringing about all seater stadiums ....but who were the men/women who came up with the ludicrous idea to cage supporters in?
Lots of good points, folks, except dave50 who has given the sort of answer I dreaded - insulting the memory of the dead.
McMouse, I agree totally with what you have said, it's exactly what I've thought all along that 'the truth' may be far too unpalatable for some to stomach unless it concurs exactly with their concept of what constitutes 'the truth'.
Also, I've seen two MPs, both self confessed Liverpool fans, one of whom was at the fateful game, plus a Professor John(something)who was also there, and all three - to a man - are already laying full blame for the tragedy at the doorstep of the Police and no one else.
Nice to get a fair hearing, ain't it?
McMouse, I agree totally with what you have said, it's exactly what I've thought all along that 'the truth' may be far too unpalatable for some to stomach unless it concurs exactly with their concept of what constitutes 'the truth'.
Also, I've seen two MPs, both self confessed Liverpool fans, one of whom was at the fateful game, plus a Professor John(something)who was also there, and all three - to a man - are already laying full blame for the tragedy at the doorstep of the Police and no one else.
Nice to get a fair hearing, ain't it?
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