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of the filth we have infecting our towns and cities
of course its not their fault is it !?....must be somebody or something else, society is to blame !, but definitely not their fault
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of course its not their fault is it !?....must be somebody or something else, society is to blame !, but definitely not their fault
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It might depend on who's doing the arguing, but for me at least you misunderstand the argument of "society is to blame". This absolutely does not absolve such people of any responsibility at all for their actions. They can, should and must be found and brought to justice. But at the same time as all that we ought to try to understand what led them to think of such actions as normal and even fun. Is there any role of society as a whole in it? The answer is generally held to be "Yes" -- because, say, an entire group of people is ignored by the rest, not given the attention or resources they need, treated as some sub-class. Such treatment can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you keep telling people that they are somehow sub-human and not fit to live in civilised society they might start to believe it. And then those who spread that message can sit back and go "told you so" smugly, but in the meantime nothing changes except for more people believing they do not belong and reacting accordingly and with violence.
There is more to it than this, of course, and I'm speaking in general terms rather than abut this specific case. But if you start from the not unreasonable viewpoint that everyone (at least, almost everyone) ultimately wants safety, security and peace and quiet, then presumably something must have gone wrong for people like this to emerge so often. Then you can try to understand what it was and how to discourage it for the future, while also dealing with the problem in the present.
I suppose the short form of the argument above is that those who say it should be only the carrot are as wrong as those who insist on using only the stick. You need both.
There is more to it than this, of course, and I'm speaking in general terms rather than abut this specific case. But if you start from the not unreasonable viewpoint that everyone (at least, almost everyone) ultimately wants safety, security and peace and quiet, then presumably something must have gone wrong for people like this to emerge so often. Then you can try to understand what it was and how to discourage it for the future, while also dealing with the problem in the present.
I suppose the short form of the argument above is that those who say it should be only the carrot are as wrong as those who insist on using only the stick. You need both.
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Here are a couple of remarks made on another forum, which just about sums matters up.
///just another day in "culturally enriched" London. ///
/// Now imagine the global uproar if it was Black girl being attacked by a bunch of White teens, we'd hear about it for the next 2 decades. ///
Here are a couple of remarks made on another forum, which just about sums matters up.
///just another day in "culturally enriched" London. ///
/// Now imagine the global uproar if it was Black girl being attacked by a bunch of White teens, we'd hear about it for the next 2 decades. ///
/// If you keep telling people that they are somehow sub-human and not fit to live in civilised society they might start to believe it. And then those who spread that message can sit back and go "told you so" smugly, but in the meantime nothing changes except for more people believing they do not belong and reacting accordingly and with violence. ///
It's all our fault!!!!!!!!!
Yes the rest of the law abiding members of our society have a lot to answer for, all it needed for this young woman to tell these thugs that she 'respected' them and things wouldn't have got to this stage.
Hands up all who agree.
It's all our fault!!!!!!!!!
Yes the rest of the law abiding members of our society have a lot to answer for, all it needed for this young woman to tell these thugs that she 'respected' them and things wouldn't have got to this stage.
Hands up all who agree.
Hmm.
Then let me be clearer: by the time of this attack there is nothing the poor woman can have said or done that would have changed much. On the other hand, in the several years previously, do you think that it might have made a difference to the attackers if they had felt more connected with society or been brought up to show more respect to others?
The idea that I was saying it's the woman's fault for not saying "Oh I respect you all" is just unbelievably far from the truth and pretty bad really that you think I think that way.
Then let me be clearer: by the time of this attack there is nothing the poor woman can have said or done that would have changed much. On the other hand, in the several years previously, do you think that it might have made a difference to the attackers if they had felt more connected with society or been brought up to show more respect to others?
The idea that I was saying it's the woman's fault for not saying "Oh I respect you all" is just unbelievably far from the truth and pretty bad really that you think I think that way.
Jim made it quite clear that these thugs are responsible for their own actions.
But he also pointed out that the events of these peoples' lives probably led them to believe it is okay to treat young girls like that. What those events are is unknown in this case, but we can try to make educated guesses based on what we know about other people who have done similar things. This doesn't diminish responsibility. It doesn't blame everyone else. It's just an attempt to work out why people do things like this. That's all.
I'm surprised he's trying, actually, as arguments that have nuances and complexity rarely seem to go anywhere.
So no, AOG, you do not get to rule on what is the "only possible interpretation."
But he also pointed out that the events of these peoples' lives probably led them to believe it is okay to treat young girls like that. What those events are is unknown in this case, but we can try to make educated guesses based on what we know about other people who have done similar things. This doesn't diminish responsibility. It doesn't blame everyone else. It's just an attempt to work out why people do things like this. That's all.
I'm surprised he's trying, actually, as arguments that have nuances and complexity rarely seem to go anywhere.
So no, AOG, you do not get to rule on what is the "only possible interpretation."
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