ChatterBank3 mins ago
Britain Is A Christian Country - Get Over It. So Says Eric Pickles
123 Answers
in an attack on Atheists.
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Is he right? And what's it got to do with him whether you or I believe or not?
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Is he right? And what's it got to do with him whether you or I believe or not?
Answers
Wow, AoG. You seem impervious to the failure of your logic on this issue. It is not atheists, militant or otherwise, who are trying to tell others what to believe ,or to impose anything on others - rather, it is those, like, apparently,
14:32 Mon 07th Apr 2014
There is a big difference between "state atheism" and active suppression of all the trappings of religion, AoG, and asking that those who wish to pray before a meeting of a public body do so in their own time, without inflicting that prayer and those trappings on everyone who attends, without recognition that those others attending might not have any belief, or a different religion.
That is what a secular society is all about.
That is what a secular society is all about.
/It would seem that some long for what can only be called "State atheism", wasn't it the Soviet Union who adopted this stance? /
aog
I think you are confusing 'state atheism' with 'state religious neutrality'
no one here is suggesting that any religion is suppressed as they were by the Soviets
just not given any special status in our state institutions such as schools and administrative bodies
aog
I think you are confusing 'state atheism' with 'state religious neutrality'
no one here is suggesting that any religion is suppressed as they were by the Soviets
just not given any special status in our state institutions such as schools and administrative bodies
I was taught at a RC Primary School, in the no-shades-of-grey 1950's.
We were taught by a mixture of Nuns, Friars, and lay people. I had some incredible twaddle drilled into me.
I asked the Nuns one day, at the age of 6, what heaven was really like (even at that age, it was obvious to me that it wasn't some kind of fairy palace up in the clouds ) I was told it was a place where you could do all your favourite things, all day long if you wanted to. I told one Nun that what I really liked doing was eating my Mum's home-made Apple Pie, with custard, and she replied, well you can eat Apple Pie all day long in Heaven if you wish !
For years afterwards, every time I smelled apple pie in the oven. I thought of heaven.
I was also taught that being a Catholic was the only right and proper thing to be. In fact, it went farther than that. We were Catholics, and then there were other people who were Protestants but they were beyond the pale. There were also some Jews in the world but they were dreadful, as they killed Baby Jesus. Everybody else that wasn't Catholic, Protestant or Jewish were Black People. No mention of all the other loony tunes around the world. I was in my late teens before I discovered Baptists, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons etc. I don't think Scientology had been invented yet in the 1950's, or if it had, it hadn't made it to St Bernadettes RC Primary School in Kenton, North London.
We were taught by a mixture of Nuns, Friars, and lay people. I had some incredible twaddle drilled into me.
I asked the Nuns one day, at the age of 6, what heaven was really like (even at that age, it was obvious to me that it wasn't some kind of fairy palace up in the clouds ) I was told it was a place where you could do all your favourite things, all day long if you wanted to. I told one Nun that what I really liked doing was eating my Mum's home-made Apple Pie, with custard, and she replied, well you can eat Apple Pie all day long in Heaven if you wish !
For years afterwards, every time I smelled apple pie in the oven. I thought of heaven.
I was also taught that being a Catholic was the only right and proper thing to be. In fact, it went farther than that. We were Catholics, and then there were other people who were Protestants but they were beyond the pale. There were also some Jews in the world but they were dreadful, as they killed Baby Jesus. Everybody else that wasn't Catholic, Protestant or Jewish were Black People. No mention of all the other loony tunes around the world. I was in my late teens before I discovered Baptists, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons etc. I don't think Scientology had been invented yet in the 1950's, or if it had, it hadn't made it to St Bernadettes RC Primary School in Kenton, North London.
I suppose whether another religion ( or atheism!) will come to supplant Christianity as the official religion rather depends on whether you think that religiosity is on the rise in the UK.
I think we are becoming more secular with each passing generation, and that interest in religion is waning with each successive generation. That preference for a secular nation will also have a protective effect against, say, the widespread implementation of something like Sharia Law.
Everyone - be you a fundamentalist religious believer or an atheist - should be thankful that we live in a secular society, and work to support that notion. The alternatives are not very palatable at all...
I think we are becoming more secular with each passing generation, and that interest in religion is waning with each successive generation. That preference for a secular nation will also have a protective effect against, say, the widespread implementation of something like Sharia Law.
Everyone - be you a fundamentalist religious believer or an atheist - should be thankful that we live in a secular society, and work to support that notion. The alternatives are not very palatable at all...
doubtful on the current numbers emmie
and if it was so, all the more reason for removing the significance and special entitlements from all religions
the best counter to 'islamification' is secularism
Irrational believers in one fairy story are far too tolerant of beliefs in another fairy story; hence the prevalence of 'inter-faith' activities
and if it was so, all the more reason for removing the significance and special entitlements from all religions
the best counter to 'islamification' is secularism
Irrational believers in one fairy story are far too tolerant of beliefs in another fairy story; hence the prevalence of 'inter-faith' activities
mikey444
/// Anyway, its none of Pickles business what we all believe. Rather a large foot in rather a large mouth it would seem here, from Mr Pickles. ///
Where is he telling you what you must believe in?
All he is asking is for you and others not to impose your politically correct intolerance on others.
And this I agree with, leave people the right to their beliefs if they do not harm others, surely that is the right thing to do even if you don't follow the faith, well at least it is what I was brought up to believe
/// Anyway, its none of Pickles business what we all believe. Rather a large foot in rather a large mouth it would seem here, from Mr Pickles. ///
Where is he telling you what you must believe in?
All he is asking is for you and others not to impose your politically correct intolerance on others.
And this I agree with, leave people the right to their beliefs if they do not harm others, surely that is the right thing to do even if you don't follow the faith, well at least it is what I was brought up to believe
Wow, AoG. You seem impervious to the failure of your logic on this issue.
It is not atheists, militant or otherwise, who are trying to tell others what to believe ,or to impose anything on others - rather, it is those, like, apparently,Mr.Pickles, who wish to impose Christianity on everyone else.
No one here has called for a ban on praying. Councillors who wish to pray in advance of a meeting are perfectly welcome to do so, so long as they do so in private, rather than inflict those prayers, that ritual upon everyone else attending, riding roughshod over their beliefs or non belief.
We live in a secular society, not a theocratic one.
It is not atheists, militant or otherwise, who are trying to tell others what to believe ,or to impose anything on others - rather, it is those, like, apparently,Mr.Pickles, who wish to impose Christianity on everyone else.
No one here has called for a ban on praying. Councillors who wish to pray in advance of a meeting are perfectly welcome to do so, so long as they do so in private, rather than inflict those prayers, that ritual upon everyone else attending, riding roughshod over their beliefs or non belief.
We live in a secular society, not a theocratic one.
I do not have a crystal ball, emmie, so do not know what the future will bring wrt religion. I am just going on the figures.
If you look at the census results, around 2/3 of the population self-identify as having some form of religion. If however, you ask the question another way and ask them if they are religious, around 2/3 claim to be non-religious. This suggests a very large proportion of those who profess membership of a religion do so out of habit rather than belief.
And of those who self-identify as non-religious, this figure has grown from around 14% back in 2001 to about 25% in 2011. So, I see this as a good thing :)
Interesting page on religiosity in the UK at wiki;
http://
If you look at the census results, around 2/3 of the population self-identify as having some form of religion. If however, you ask the question another way and ask them if they are religious, around 2/3 claim to be non-religious. This suggests a very large proportion of those who profess membership of a religion do so out of habit rather than belief.
And of those who self-identify as non-religious, this figure has grown from around 14% back in 2001 to about 25% in 2011. So, I see this as a good thing :)
Interesting page on religiosity in the UK at wiki;
http://
AOG...a quote from Mr Pickles :::
"I've stopped an attempt by militant atheists to ban councils having prayers at the start of meetings if they wish."
Council meetings are not the Church of England Synod, or the weekly gathering of the Mothers Union. Religion should be completely divorced from politics. If a few of the Christians want to have prayers, then perhaps they can have them in a ante room, before Council Meetings start. Prayers are completely irrelevant from the proceedings of a Council meeting.
I want to see religion and State completely separated and we can start at the bottom, with Councils.
"I've stopped an attempt by militant atheists to ban councils having prayers at the start of meetings if they wish."
Council meetings are not the Church of England Synod, or the weekly gathering of the Mothers Union. Religion should be completely divorced from politics. If a few of the Christians want to have prayers, then perhaps they can have them in a ante room, before Council Meetings start. Prayers are completely irrelevant from the proceedings of a Council meeting.
I want to see religion and State completely separated and we can start at the bottom, with Councils.
A couple of points
1) Militant Athiest comes from the USA, because, seriously, when the radical christians are challenged to repudiate science and prove thier views, they cannot but to challenge those views is millitant.
2) The Christian, or indeed the theist, view of free speech is "shut up and listen to me" The more that thier books are disseminated and disproved by science the more they scream, even more when challenged about the hypocrisy, cherry picking and down right bigotry concerning the bible. The bible says homosexuality is wrong, it also says you should stone your son to death if he disobeys, you shouldn't work on Sunday, condones slavery and says an awful lot of nasty things about women.
Christians are keen to prevent homosexual liasins but the rest of it is metaphors are some other rubbish.
And this is why Athiests are talking, because not only are selective about which rules the rest of us must adhere to, they are picking the rules.
1) Militant Athiest comes from the USA, because, seriously, when the radical christians are challenged to repudiate science and prove thier views, they cannot but to challenge those views is millitant.
2) The Christian, or indeed the theist, view of free speech is "shut up and listen to me" The more that thier books are disseminated and disproved by science the more they scream, even more when challenged about the hypocrisy, cherry picking and down right bigotry concerning the bible. The bible says homosexuality is wrong, it also says you should stone your son to death if he disobeys, you shouldn't work on Sunday, condones slavery and says an awful lot of nasty things about women.
Christians are keen to prevent homosexual liasins but the rest of it is metaphors are some other rubbish.
And this is why Athiests are talking, because not only are selective about which rules the rest of us must adhere to, they are picking the rules.
I have just checked. AoG. and my head is still unexploded ;) Have not seen that particular cartoon before, and I do like the music. The argument itself though is not new - it even has its own name, the Cosmological argument, or Kalam Cosmological Argument - nor is it something that gives atheists a particular problem. The point is that there are many naturalistic explanations which simply do not require the invocation of a supernatural creator, ie god.
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http://
LazyGun
/// Wow, AoG. You seem impervious to the failure of your logic on this
issue. ///
That is only because I dare to have an opposite opinion to some others, and along with abusive personal insults etc, all go with those who wish to dictate to others.
/// It is not atheists, militant or otherwise, who are trying to tell others what to believe ,or to impose anything on others - rather, it is those, like, apparently,Mr.Pickles, who wish to impose Christianity on everyone else. ///
And neither is Mr Pickles, if you disagree please copy and post where he has said this.
/// No one here has called for a ban on praying. Councillors who wish to pray in advance of a meeting are perfectly welcome to do so, so long as they do so in private, rather than inflict those prayers, that ritual upon everyone else attending, riding roughshod over their beliefs or non belief. ///
Once again they (and I presume they are in the majority or no prayers would take place, seeing that they are not compulsory) are not inflicting their ritual as you put it on others, the minority have every right to delay their entrance into the council chamber until prayers are over.
When I was in the Armed Forces and the Padre was issuing prayers at the beginning of a parade, those who were of other faiths were allowed to step out, just the same as at School assembly, no one was forced to attend, and the majority did not have to step out of the proceedings as you suggest those do at council meetings.
/// Wow, AoG. You seem impervious to the failure of your logic on this
issue. ///
That is only because I dare to have an opposite opinion to some others, and along with abusive personal insults etc, all go with those who wish to dictate to others.
/// It is not atheists, militant or otherwise, who are trying to tell others what to believe ,or to impose anything on others - rather, it is those, like, apparently,Mr.Pickles, who wish to impose Christianity on everyone else. ///
And neither is Mr Pickles, if you disagree please copy and post where he has said this.
/// No one here has called for a ban on praying. Councillors who wish to pray in advance of a meeting are perfectly welcome to do so, so long as they do so in private, rather than inflict those prayers, that ritual upon everyone else attending, riding roughshod over their beliefs or non belief. ///
Once again they (and I presume they are in the majority or no prayers would take place, seeing that they are not compulsory) are not inflicting their ritual as you put it on others, the minority have every right to delay their entrance into the council chamber until prayers are over.
When I was in the Armed Forces and the Padre was issuing prayers at the beginning of a parade, those who were of other faiths were allowed to step out, just the same as at School assembly, no one was forced to attend, and the majority did not have to step out of the proceedings as you suggest those do at council meetings.
"That is only because I dare to have an opposite opinion to some others, and along with abusive personal insults etc, all go with those who wish to dictate to others. "
You have just posted a video portraying atheists as incoherent, ill-educated, rude, obnoxious morons. Are you sure you don't insult those who disagree with you?
You have just posted a video portraying atheists as incoherent, ill-educated, rude, obnoxious morons. Are you sure you don't insult those who disagree with you?
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