The Bloke On Who Wants To Be A...
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I Know We've Done This To Death, But...
149 Answers
... why does the sheer number of racists/homophobes/whatever in UKIP simply not bother people?
The usual response is that "all parties have bad eggs that we don't hear about." But
a) UKIP are significantly worse offenders
b) UKIP do not seem to care about their unsavoury members. Every time there's a platitude about how the problem will be solved, or how the party is taking quick and effective action - but then it transpires that the person has been behaving in such a way for a very long time, and earned no response.
Why do the same empty excuses always prove so effective? Does this really not bother people? Is nobody concerned that they may have just elected one of UKIP's legion of bad eggs to public office?
The usual response is that "all parties have bad eggs that we don't hear about." But
a) UKIP are significantly worse offenders
b) UKIP do not seem to care about their unsavoury members. Every time there's a platitude about how the problem will be solved, or how the party is taking quick and effective action - but then it transpires that the person has been behaving in such a way for a very long time, and earned no response.
Why do the same empty excuses always prove so effective? Does this really not bother people? Is nobody concerned that they may have just elected one of UKIP's legion of bad eggs to public office?
Answers
I think you are still missing the point. I'm reminded of all these people who, on expressing their views and getting criticised, throw out the "I'm entitled to my opinion" defence. Well yes, they are, and no-one ever disputed that. But then I am equally entitled to mine, an opinion which sees yours as backward or bigoted or whatever, and there is no reason why I...
12:50 Mon 26th May 2014
Perhaps the frequent stories we hear about UKIP's attitude towards gay people is a reflection of UKIP policy.
Whilst other parties almost certainly have members who views on gay people range from ambivalence to outright hatred, UKIP's official stance is very much anti-gay, as evidenced by it's voting record in Europe.
To whit:
In key votes over the past EU parliamentary term, UKIP MEPs have failed to back gay rights time and again. The record of Conservatives is not much better.
In a 2012 vote on tackling discrimination against LGBT couples and their families when moving to another EU country, UKIP MEPs sided with the BNP and voted against.
When the European Parliament voted in 2012 to condemn homophobia in Russia, UKIP’s MEPs either abstained or failed to turn up.
In 2013, UKIP voted against an EU law establishing equal property rights for international couples, whether gay or straight, while Conservatives failed to vote in favour.
In a report on human rights in the world, including sexual orientation and gender identity, UKIP joined BNP leader Nick Griffin in voting against, Conservatives abstaining.
Finally, UKIP (and the Tories) failed to back a call by MEPs earlier this year for a comprehensive strategy against homophobia in Europe.
Overall, a recent report by an all-party group of MEPs on LGBT rights found that UKIP and their European allies had the worst record of any of the seven groups in the European Parliament.
In contrast, Liberal Democrat MEPs have systematically supported LGBT rights, with the European liberal group coming out with the best record in the European Parliament, alongside socialists and greens.
With UKIP’s group voting just 13% of the time to back LGBT equality, they clearly come bottom of the class.
Whilst other parties almost certainly have members who views on gay people range from ambivalence to outright hatred, UKIP's official stance is very much anti-gay, as evidenced by it's voting record in Europe.
To whit:
In key votes over the past EU parliamentary term, UKIP MEPs have failed to back gay rights time and again. The record of Conservatives is not much better.
In a 2012 vote on tackling discrimination against LGBT couples and their families when moving to another EU country, UKIP MEPs sided with the BNP and voted against.
When the European Parliament voted in 2012 to condemn homophobia in Russia, UKIP’s MEPs either abstained or failed to turn up.
In 2013, UKIP voted against an EU law establishing equal property rights for international couples, whether gay or straight, while Conservatives failed to vote in favour.
In a report on human rights in the world, including sexual orientation and gender identity, UKIP joined BNP leader Nick Griffin in voting against, Conservatives abstaining.
Finally, UKIP (and the Tories) failed to back a call by MEPs earlier this year for a comprehensive strategy against homophobia in Europe.
Overall, a recent report by an all-party group of MEPs on LGBT rights found that UKIP and their European allies had the worst record of any of the seven groups in the European Parliament.
In contrast, Liberal Democrat MEPs have systematically supported LGBT rights, with the European liberal group coming out with the best record in the European Parliament, alongside socialists and greens.
With UKIP’s group voting just 13% of the time to back LGBT equality, they clearly come bottom of the class.
Regarding the "It's okay to be homophobic if you're over 70" statement (that I) attributed to Farage.
I was inferring this from Mr Farage's response to Roger Helmer who stated that homosexuality is “not a valid lifestyle worthy of equal respect”.
"Roger Helmer is fighting this by-election for us; he’s somebody of 70 years of age who grew up with a strong Christian Bible background; he grew up in an age when homosexuality was actually imprisonable, and he had a certain set of views which he maintained for many years which he now says he accepts the world’s moved on and he’s relaxed about.
As I say, when Roger grew up and, indeed, when he was an adult, homosexuality was illegal in this country, and he held that view for some period of time."
I was inferring this from Mr Farage's response to Roger Helmer who stated that homosexuality is “not a valid lifestyle worthy of equal respect”.
"Roger Helmer is fighting this by-election for us; he’s somebody of 70 years of age who grew up with a strong Christian Bible background; he grew up in an age when homosexuality was actually imprisonable, and he had a certain set of views which he maintained for many years which he now says he accepts the world’s moved on and he’s relaxed about.
As I say, when Roger grew up and, indeed, when he was an adult, homosexuality was illegal in this country, and he held that view for some period of time."
Its not enough for Farage to try to explain why so many older people are homophobic, or racist for that matter. He should come out (!) unequivocally and state that both are wrong, and that they are not acceptable views for anyone to hold, not just his own candidates.
Of course some people hold these abhorrent opinions, and in a free society we have to accept that they exist, but they shouldn't be picked as candidates for UKIP ...that is what the BNP is for !
I am fed up with Farage making excuses as to why his much vaunted vetting procedure isn't working. He should pull his finger out and get on with the job.
Of course some people hold these abhorrent opinions, and in a free society we have to accept that they exist, but they shouldn't be picked as candidates for UKIP ...that is what the BNP is for !
I am fed up with Farage making excuses as to why his much vaunted vetting procedure isn't working. He should pull his finger out and get on with the job.
sp1814
/// When the European Parliament voted in 2012 to condemn homophobia in Russia, UKIP’s MEPs either abstained or failed to turn up. ///
There are many issues that are voted on in both the European Parliament and the UK Parliament, of which members of all parties are free to either vote for, against or even abstain, why should a certain non EU country's views on homosexuality be treated any different?
There are more important matters than
/// When the European Parliament voted in 2012 to condemn homophobia in Russia, UKIP’s MEPs either abstained or failed to turn up. ///
There are many issues that are voted on in both the European Parliament and the UK Parliament, of which members of all parties are free to either vote for, against or even abstain, why should a certain non EU country's views on homosexuality be treated any different?
There are more important matters than
AOG
I'm merely pointing out facts about UKIP's attitude to equality for gay people.
As its record shows that 87% of the time, UKIP MEPs will vote against equality bills, I think it's safe to assume that as a party, it's not in favour of equal treatment for gay people.
Something that will chime well with it's core demographic.
If UKIP are favoured by older people, and (as Mr Farage has stated) older voters grew up in a time when hatred/suspicion/antipathy of gay people was the norm - then it makes sense that the party reflects this.
The only problem is that it may leave gay people who was out of Europe feeling compromised when voting for UKIP.
I'm merely pointing out facts about UKIP's attitude to equality for gay people.
As its record shows that 87% of the time, UKIP MEPs will vote against equality bills, I think it's safe to assume that as a party, it's not in favour of equal treatment for gay people.
Something that will chime well with it's core demographic.
If UKIP are favoured by older people, and (as Mr Farage has stated) older voters grew up in a time when hatred/suspicion/antipathy of gay people was the norm - then it makes sense that the party reflects this.
The only problem is that it may leave gay people who was out of Europe feeling compromised when voting for UKIP.
sp1814
/// Now, I admit, I probably inferred something that Farage wasn't implying...but it sounds like he was justifying anti-gay sentiments amongst the elderly. ///
People of all ages possess 'anti' sentiments on all issues, why should anti gay issues for example be any different?
When the state decides to change their attitude ie bring out different laws than those in the past, they still cannot force a person's personal attitude to change.
/// Now, I admit, I probably inferred something that Farage wasn't implying...but it sounds like he was justifying anti-gay sentiments amongst the elderly. ///
People of all ages possess 'anti' sentiments on all issues, why should anti gay issues for example be any different?
When the state decides to change their attitude ie bring out different laws than those in the past, they still cannot force a person's personal attitude to change.
I think you've rather spectacularly missed the point. A vote on condemning Russia's attitude may not be very important in your opinion, but it's about posturing and sending a message about what attitudes Europeans take towards homosexuality. And the general pattern as evidenced by UKIP voters over a huge set of such votes is that they just don't care whether or not LGBT people have equal rights and equal opportunities and freedom from prejudice. That's a backward attitude and one which ought to be exposed and stressed.
//Why do the same empty excuses always prove so effective? Does this really not bother people? Is nobody concerned that they may have just elected one of UKIP's legion of bad eggs to public office? //
the policy message of the nazi party never changed, and they never made any secret of what it was they stood for. yet they went from 2.8% of the vote in 1928 to 33% in only four years. there were sufficient atrocities perpetrated by the SA during that time to ensure the electorate knew what naziism meant, yet they still elected them.
the policy message of the nazi party never changed, and they never made any secret of what it was they stood for. yet they went from 2.8% of the vote in 1928 to 33% in only four years. there were sufficient atrocities perpetrated by the SA during that time to ensure the electorate knew what naziism meant, yet they still elected them.
sp1814
/// If UKIP are favoured by older people, and (as Mr Farage has stated) older voters grew up in a time when hatred/suspicion/antipathy of gay people was the norm - then it makes sense that the party reflects this. ///
As a gay person it is quite understandable that you will be concerned about gay issues, but I think you are looking too far into this from a homosexual view point.
If it is true that older people may have a stronger attraction towards UKIP it is not because of any homophobic issues, it is because they have more experience of life under the established other three parties, the way that they have seen their country change out of all recognition due entirely by mass immigration and being ruled by Europe.
Mass immigration and Europe, a party that are prepared to even discuss these two matters are enough to attracted the more elderly amongst us.
/// If UKIP are favoured by older people, and (as Mr Farage has stated) older voters grew up in a time when hatred/suspicion/antipathy of gay people was the norm - then it makes sense that the party reflects this. ///
As a gay person it is quite understandable that you will be concerned about gay issues, but I think you are looking too far into this from a homosexual view point.
If it is true that older people may have a stronger attraction towards UKIP it is not because of any homophobic issues, it is because they have more experience of life under the established other three parties, the way that they have seen their country change out of all recognition due entirely by mass immigration and being ruled by Europe.
Mass immigration and Europe, a party that are prepared to even discuss these two matters are enough to attracted the more elderly amongst us.
^ as interesting as this conversation is, I'd like to point out that Mr. Helmer (who as sp points out, said homosexuality "is not a valid lifestyle worthy of equal respect") has been re-elected to the European Parliament for the East Midlands.
Any ABers who voted UKIP in the East Midlands - are you happy that this man has remained in public office?
Any ABers who voted UKIP in the East Midlands - are you happy that this man has remained in public office?
Kromovaracun have a look at the link that ChillDoubt has posted on this thread
http://
> An openly gay UKIP MEP has been elected for the first time ever.
David Coburn managed to clinch UKIP’s first seat in Scotland, where the party came sixth in the 2009 European elections.
Coburn, who was previously the party’s London Regional Chairman, will be UKIP’s first openly gay MEP. <
http://
> An openly gay UKIP MEP has been elected for the first time ever.
David Coburn managed to clinch UKIP’s first seat in Scotland, where the party came sixth in the 2009 European elections.
Coburn, who was previously the party’s London Regional Chairman, will be UKIP’s first openly gay MEP. <
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