Is Labour Starting To Abolish Democracy...
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I Know We've Done This To Death, But...
149 Answers
... why does the sheer number of racists/homophobes/whatever in UKIP simply not bother people?
The usual response is that "all parties have bad eggs that we don't hear about." But
a) UKIP are significantly worse offenders
b) UKIP do not seem to care about their unsavoury members. Every time there's a platitude about how the problem will be solved, or how the party is taking quick and effective action - but then it transpires that the person has been behaving in such a way for a very long time, and earned no response.
Why do the same empty excuses always prove so effective? Does this really not bother people? Is nobody concerned that they may have just elected one of UKIP's legion of bad eggs to public office?
The usual response is that "all parties have bad eggs that we don't hear about." But
a) UKIP are significantly worse offenders
b) UKIP do not seem to care about their unsavoury members. Every time there's a platitude about how the problem will be solved, or how the party is taking quick and effective action - but then it transpires that the person has been behaving in such a way for a very long time, and earned no response.
Why do the same empty excuses always prove so effective? Does this really not bother people? Is nobody concerned that they may have just elected one of UKIP's legion of bad eggs to public office?
Answers
I think you are still missing the point. I'm reminded of all these people who, on expressing their views and getting criticised, throw out the "I'm entitled to my opinion" defence. Well yes, they are, and no-one ever disputed that. But then I am equally entitled to mine, an opinion which sees yours as backward or bigoted or whatever, and there is no reason why I...
12:50 Mon 26th May 2014
No, of course it isn't. This is not about UKIP's policies - it's about the level of control they exert over their members.
It is not racist to talk about immigration. Claiming that slavery was justified or telling black-born Britons to move to a "black country" or any other of the myriad number of revelations about UKIP members is pretty racist.
It is not racist to talk about immigration. Claiming that slavery was justified or telling black-born Britons to move to a "black country" or any other of the myriad number of revelations about UKIP members is pretty racist.
Apparently the problem is Europe wide. I despair of what's happened in France and really wouldn't want to be an immigrant there with their current attitudes, but UKIP are equally worrying. They just don't care about their 'oddballs' ( for oddball read racist, misogynist, homophobic weirdo) until the press get hold of them then old Nigel says the same thing every time- " Well IF that's true then he'll be subject to a disciplinary procedure but let's just wait and see'.
I am bothered, I am bothered a great deal and had far more faith in the British electorate than to think they were so blase about freedoms they obviously take for granted. Apparently most of them are far more gullible and stupid than I gave them credit for.
I am bothered, I am bothered a great deal and had far more faith in the British electorate than to think they were so blase about freedoms they obviously take for granted. Apparently most of them are far more gullible and stupid than I gave them credit for.
With all the spin that's gone on around this election, it's difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. For example, just yesterday someone here claimed that Nigel Farage had said that being homophobic was 'ok', when he hadn't said that at all. What he actually said was, "This generation [the over 70s] was taught to believe this was wrong. For many people of this age and older they still find it difficult."
People are sick of the main parties and their smarmy platitudes, lies, expense fiddling and apparent contempt for the people they're supposed to represent. Voting UKIP is the only way they can get back at them because losing votes is the only thing that seems to bother them.
They're frankly not bothered about the insults and accusations being thrown at UKIP from all directions. It merely confirms that their protest vote is working and hurting the main parties.
Fear not though krom. Come the general election the vast majority of voters will revert to voting for their usual team - for fear of 'the other lot' getting in if they don't - and UKIP will be very lucky to win a single seat.
They're frankly not bothered about the insults and accusations being thrown at UKIP from all directions. It merely confirms that their protest vote is working and hurting the main parties.
Fear not though krom. Come the general election the vast majority of voters will revert to voting for their usual team - for fear of 'the other lot' getting in if they don't - and UKIP will be very lucky to win a single seat.
You have no idea whether "UKIP are significantly worse offenders" since you can not tell what opinions are unrevealed in other parties. And given the nature of the issue UKIP are tackling it is bound to attract those whose extreme views are not being represented. There is no indication that those folk are going to succeed in making their opinion policy. And folk who go too far have been ousted.
UKIP does care as it needs to sway the public but it accepts a diverse range of opinion instead of trying to get all to parrot the party line. It's a young party, if they ever get success that'll change.
And 20 odd EU representatives who are keener to show contempt to the EU than participate/support whatever it is trying are hardly something to lose sleep over.
The big question is why you are so fussed about it. Does this anti EU party worry you that much ?
UKIP does care as it needs to sway the public but it accepts a diverse range of opinion instead of trying to get all to parrot the party line. It's a young party, if they ever get success that'll change.
And 20 odd EU representatives who are keener to show contempt to the EU than participate/support whatever it is trying are hardly something to lose sleep over.
The big question is why you are so fussed about it. Does this anti EU party worry you that much ?
Okay, well let's take some concrete examples then.
Here's Anne Marie Crampton, admittedly not a terribly recent one, but she was put forward as a candidate by UKIP in a local election and denies that the holocaust ever happened:
http://
Then there was Eric Kitson - one of UKIP's elected councillors last time - who said that Muslim women should be hanged and was forced to resign:
http://
(Mr Kitson had been posting this stuff for a year - UKIP did nothing until the press found it)
Dr Julia Gasper used UKIP's own members' forum, and claimed that homosexuality and paedophilia were linked (the article also mentions other UKIP members who said the same thing on the same forum):
http://
One of UKIp's less-reported candidates this year had been saying that "there is no such thing as a benign muslim"
http://
And this is all before getting into the better-reported candidates (and even elected councillors) who have slipped through UKIP's incredibly loose/virtually non-existent net.
Now, I'm not claiming these people represent the average UKIP member or voter. But they do represent a total lack of concern for vetting candidates. Anyone who voted UKIP last week actually has a decent chance of putting such a person in public office - far more so than any of the other parties.
Here's Anne Marie Crampton, admittedly not a terribly recent one, but she was put forward as a candidate by UKIP in a local election and denies that the holocaust ever happened:
http://
Then there was Eric Kitson - one of UKIP's elected councillors last time - who said that Muslim women should be hanged and was forced to resign:
http://
(Mr Kitson had been posting this stuff for a year - UKIP did nothing until the press found it)
Dr Julia Gasper used UKIP's own members' forum, and claimed that homosexuality and paedophilia were linked (the article also mentions other UKIP members who said the same thing on the same forum):
http://
One of UKIp's less-reported candidates this year had been saying that "there is no such thing as a benign muslim"
http://
And this is all before getting into the better-reported candidates (and even elected councillors) who have slipped through UKIP's incredibly loose/virtually non-existent net.
Now, I'm not claiming these people represent the average UKIP member or voter. But they do represent a total lack of concern for vetting candidates. Anyone who voted UKIP last week actually has a decent chance of putting such a person in public office - far more so than any of the other parties.
Kromo...you make your point well, especially the last paragraph. I have lost count of how many times we have seen Farage looking embarrassed in the Media when one of his daft and dangerous candidates have been found out.
If it wasn't for the fact that its his job to filter these barking mad twits out of his Party, before they come to prominence, I might feel sorry for him.
The Party is a shambles but it does appear to learning from its mistakes, which must be worrying for the future. If they can get this far from a point of shambles, imagine what they might do if they were organised !
If it wasn't for the fact that its his job to filter these barking mad twits out of his Party, before they come to prominence, I might feel sorry for him.
The Party is a shambles but it does appear to learning from its mistakes, which must be worrying for the future. If they can get this far from a point of shambles, imagine what they might do if they were organised !
I once had to suffer the company of a group of ukip 'activists'. They mistakenly, thought that I was a ukip supporter for reasons irrelevant here and expounded their views quite freely . They seemed to be mostly, either bigots, fascists or dimly naive. I guess the electorate will realize what they are in time.
orderlimit
Numbers are hard on this, but we do know how many councillors each party has lost between May 2013 and now.
http://
UKIP lost almost 1 in 10 - mostly for racism, but also on fraud charges.
The article (frustratingly) says that this is considerably higher proportionally than the other parties (which admittedly likely comes from the fact that UKIP had a smaller group of councillors), but does not say the numbers. I'll see if I can find them elsewhere.
Numbers are hard on this, but we do know how many councillors each party has lost between May 2013 and now.
http://
UKIP lost almost 1 in 10 - mostly for racism, but also on fraud charges.
The article (frustratingly) says that this is considerably higher proportionally than the other parties (which admittedly likely comes from the fact that UKIP had a smaller group of councillors), but does not say the numbers. I'll see if I can find them elsewhere.
I think the answer is that UKIP are "on a roll" and for now none of that really resonates with people as it should. It was interesting watching a BBC reporter asking people in Worksop who they'd voter for. One chap couldn't really explain why he'd voted UKIP as he had no problem with immigration.
When UKIP start re-inventing themselves as a multi-issue party they will hit huge problems. But for now, Farage could have been exposed as the child-molesting great grandson of Adolf Hitler and it probably would not have made a lot of difference.
When UKIP start re-inventing themselves as a multi-issue party they will hit huge problems. But for now, Farage could have been exposed as the child-molesting great grandson of Adolf Hitler and it probably would not have made a lot of difference.
Perhaps there is racism in all parties, but we only seem to get to know about those in UKIP.
/// ‘Cllr Pervaz Khan said he felt “ashamed” for belonging to Middlesbrough Labour group which “is treating some of my Asian family and friends in a manner which they perceive to be racist and, incidentally, so do I” ///
/// The Gazette Live ran this story on the 6th of this month. Yet this morning I have once again been scouring the front pages of The Times, Guardian and other national newspapers, and can find absolutely no reference to, or outcry over, this whole business. Is there a reason? Do any readers have any idea of what it might be? ///
and this
http://
And also this
http://
http://
/// ‘Cllr Pervaz Khan said he felt “ashamed” for belonging to Middlesbrough Labour group which “is treating some of my Asian family and friends in a manner which they perceive to be racist and, incidentally, so do I” ///
/// The Gazette Live ran this story on the 6th of this month. Yet this morning I have once again been scouring the front pages of The Times, Guardian and other national newspapers, and can find absolutely no reference to, or outcry over, this whole business. Is there a reason? Do any readers have any idea of what it might be? ///
and this
http://
And also this
http://
http://
It seemed as if the only two significant parties that campaigned in the European elections on Europe were UKIP (out out out!) and LibDems (in in in!). I didn't see many Party Election Broadcasts but Labour's seemed to have nothing to do with Euroe at all.
Anyway, if voters cared at all about Europe, then they voted for UKIP because they thought that it would be worth putting up with all that rubbish from the candidates if it sent a clear message to the main parties that they want out of Europe -- or, at least, want a say on it soon. It seems that most people don't know about, or care about, or appreciate, the work that some MEPs do in Brussels (myself included, really -- my vote was based on not that much more than ten seconds of reading about the head of the party list), so perhaps people don't expect the MEPs to do anything. This is a good thing, since UKIP MEPs are apparently rather good at not participating in the European Parliament anyway, so at least they won't be disappointed.
I don't think many people in Europe see the Election as much more than a chance to send a message to their own country's main parties. One of the graphics in the BBC show last night suggested that there was a broad correlation between how well the economy was doing and how big a hit the main parties took. If we ignore the LibDems (and hey, most people did on Thursday!) then that correlation might extend here as well. Labour saw their vote rise, the Conservatives didn't take a very large hit really.
Anyway, if voters cared at all about Europe, then they voted for UKIP because they thought that it would be worth putting up with all that rubbish from the candidates if it sent a clear message to the main parties that they want out of Europe -- or, at least, want a say on it soon. It seems that most people don't know about, or care about, or appreciate, the work that some MEPs do in Brussels (myself included, really -- my vote was based on not that much more than ten seconds of reading about the head of the party list), so perhaps people don't expect the MEPs to do anything. This is a good thing, since UKIP MEPs are apparently rather good at not participating in the European Parliament anyway, so at least they won't be disappointed.
I don't think many people in Europe see the Election as much more than a chance to send a message to their own country's main parties. One of the graphics in the BBC show last night suggested that there was a broad correlation between how well the economy was doing and how big a hit the main parties took. If we ignore the LibDems (and hey, most people did on Thursday!) then that correlation might extend here as well. Labour saw their vote rise, the Conservatives didn't take a very large hit really.
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