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To All Those On Here Moaning About Israel....
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No one seems to have an answer to the basic point that I and others have been making. Are they simply supposed to absorb the missiles and do nothing? I asked Gromit on his thread but the silence was deafening.
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Correct me if I am wrong but didn't it all start with Great Britain giving away land in Palestine ( which did not belong to us) to create a new state ( Israel) for Jews from all over the world to settle in one location ? Did we ask the opinion of the people who already lived there before we did this ? This then created the start of the situation that exists in Palestine today. Then the Jewish settlers were not satisfied with what they had been given & started stealing more land that did not belong to them & no one did anything about it & so the situation continued because greed be gets more greed. Israel should be forced to go back to their original land & give back all to the Palestinians that they have stolen. Furthermore Israel should be indicted as war criminals & shown to the world as the aggressors in this ever increasing conflict.
My father was stationed there in 1946 with the RAF.
Hardened fighters were arriving from Europe by the shipload.
When the Palestine Authorities tried to prevent them landing the Americans forced the issue. The European Jews proceeded to create their 'Promised Land' regardless of who was already there.
When my father and his colleagues were posted to protect people's property they were subjected by Jewish terrorist gangs to drive by grenade and machine gun attacks.
Hardened fighters were arriving from Europe by the shipload.
When the Palestine Authorities tried to prevent them landing the Americans forced the issue. The European Jews proceeded to create their 'Promised Land' regardless of who was already there.
When my father and his colleagues were posted to protect people's property they were subjected by Jewish terrorist gangs to drive by grenade and machine gun attacks.
Whilst I sympathise with the Palestinians/Gaza residents my leaning will always be towards Israel.
To paraphrase and add to what someone posted on here the other day, when all you're immediate neighbours are Islamic nations and many within them preach the death and destruction of Israel, on top of which worldwide you're in all probability the most persecuted and villified religion in living memory and certainly of the last two centuries, you're going to do everything in your power to ensure your preservation.
That's just my take on it.
To paraphrase and add to what someone posted on here the other day, when all you're immediate neighbours are Islamic nations and many within them preach the death and destruction of Israel, on top of which worldwide you're in all probability the most persecuted and villified religion in living memory and certainly of the last two centuries, you're going to do everything in your power to ensure your preservation.
That's just my take on it.
Hamas fires rockets from a hospital knowing Israel will blast it to smithereens, and Israel duly blasts it to smithereens.
It's difficult to decide who the good guys are in that situation.
The only people I have any sympathy for are the innocent people - most of them children, being used as cannon fodder by both sides. Perhaps we should find another homeland for the children of both sides and leave the adults to get on with killing each other.
It's difficult to decide who the good guys are in that situation.
The only people I have any sympathy for are the innocent people - most of them children, being used as cannon fodder by both sides. Perhaps we should find another homeland for the children of both sides and leave the adults to get on with killing each other.
Israel would never have invaded the West Bank if Jordan had stayed out of the 6-day war. Golda Meir and King Hussein of Jordan had a private agreement that if he stayed neutral the Israelis would leave him alone, but he preferred to believe Nasser, who told him that the Egyptians had wiped out the Israeli Airforce. The opposite was true. As soon as the Israelis saw Hussein's airforce coming over the border, that land was lost. So the West Bank became fair game, not just an Israeli land-grab, and the new boundary was much more defensible. Did you know that within the old boundaries, much of Israel was only 9 miles wide ? That's Nine miles, not ninety.
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/Israel would never have invaded the West Bank if Jordan had stayed out of the 6-day war./
So just a coincidence then:
all those millions of jewish people around the world who wanted to come to Israel - if only there was room for them... land where they could build new settlements... a land where all the non jews conveniently disappeared into refugee camps and restricted ghettoes
So just a coincidence then:
all those millions of jewish people around the world who wanted to come to Israel - if only there was room for them... land where they could build new settlements... a land where all the non jews conveniently disappeared into refugee camps and restricted ghettoes
Jim360:” I don't think the Allied bombing campaigns of eg Dresden were at all proportionate. Tens of thousands of people dead, a beautiful ancient city levelled virtually overnight, and for no military purpose whatsoever.”
Yes very similar to Coventry. They reaped the wind.
Anneasquith: “im not moaning about israels right to defend itself. im disgusted/ appalled at the civilian deaths in Gaza.” – Easily sorted, stop firing rockets.
Zeuhl: “They are supposed to comply with UN Resolutions regarding their illegal occupation of other people's land and seriously address the issue of long term relations with their neighbours.” - agreed but even if they do palastinians don’t recognise legitimate Israel, so it won’t end there.
Zeuhl: “Sadly, apologists like T3 reassure the Zionist extremists that the world will let them get away with it.” – I’m not a apologist I’m a realist, poke a tiger with a stick and regardless of the rights and wrongs do not be surprised when it takes your head off. Why are there so many apologists for indiscriminate Hamas attacks, they have the power to stop this.
Gromit: “Not sure where you asked if Israel should absorb the missiles and do nothing.” See my tesponses in your “Sanctions/ No Sanctions”
Also gromit if they had any sort of defence shield they’d have used it would they not?
Old_Geezer: Yes I never quite understood why we were’nt levelling Dublin whilst they where bombing London.
whiskeyRon: “Correct me if I am wrong but didn't it all start with Great Britain giving away land in Palestine ( which did not belong to us) to create a new state ( Israel) for Jews from all over the world to settle in one location” – yep I just knew it would be our fault! – The allies via UN resolution together created Israel and they refused all previous offers until they got the “promised land”
Yes very similar to Coventry. They reaped the wind.
Anneasquith: “im not moaning about israels right to defend itself. im disgusted/ appalled at the civilian deaths in Gaza.” – Easily sorted, stop firing rockets.
Zeuhl: “They are supposed to comply with UN Resolutions regarding their illegal occupation of other people's land and seriously address the issue of long term relations with their neighbours.” - agreed but even if they do palastinians don’t recognise legitimate Israel, so it won’t end there.
Zeuhl: “Sadly, apologists like T3 reassure the Zionist extremists that the world will let them get away with it.” – I’m not a apologist I’m a realist, poke a tiger with a stick and regardless of the rights and wrongs do not be surprised when it takes your head off. Why are there so many apologists for indiscriminate Hamas attacks, they have the power to stop this.
Gromit: “Not sure where you asked if Israel should absorb the missiles and do nothing.” See my tesponses in your “Sanctions/ No Sanctions”
Also gromit if they had any sort of defence shield they’d have used it would they not?
Old_Geezer: Yes I never quite understood why we were’nt levelling Dublin whilst they where bombing London.
whiskeyRon: “Correct me if I am wrong but didn't it all start with Great Britain giving away land in Palestine ( which did not belong to us) to create a new state ( Israel) for Jews from all over the world to settle in one location” – yep I just knew it would be our fault! – The allies via UN resolution together created Israel and they refused all previous offers until they got the “promised land”
"When mainland Britain was targeted by the IRA, we didn't use long range missiles to decimate Catholic estates in NI."
Hardly an appropriate comparison, sp. We may have acted differently if ballistic missiles were being sent daily to land in London.
"Who fired the first shot this time?"
You need to go back a bit beyond the last couple of months. I would suggest 1948 might be a good starting point.
"What I don't understand is why is the US helping in all this? "
Because there are more Jews in New York than in Israel.
Hardly an appropriate comparison, sp. We may have acted differently if ballistic missiles were being sent daily to land in London.
"Who fired the first shot this time?"
You need to go back a bit beyond the last couple of months. I would suggest 1948 might be a good starting point.
"What I don't understand is why is the US helping in all this? "
Because there are more Jews in New York than in Israel.
The youths were picked up in the West Bank, and it is almost certain that Palestinians were responsible. What is not certain, is that the perpetrators were from Hamas. The Israelis named two suspects who they said were Hamas members. So far they have not been captured. Israel never said what proof they had, and Hamas constituently denied any involvement and said the two were no longer members. Several other groups, including ISIS claimed responsibility, but those claims were not deemed credible. The basis of the invasion is on unheard evidence and without any trial.
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It is possible that Hamas could have been responsible, but has they had just formed a new united Government to run the Palestinian Authority, they had a lot to lose from such a stupid action.
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It is possible that Hamas could have been responsible, but has they had just formed a new united Government to run the Palestinian Authority, they had a lot to lose from such a stupid action.
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/I’m not a apologist I’m a realist, poke a tiger with a stick and regardless of the rights and wrongs do not be surprised when it takes your head off. Why are there so many apologists for indiscriminate Hamas attacks, they have the power to stop this./
T3 - as pointed out on another related thread, we have heard that perverted logic before:
Crete for example
'If you want us to stop massacring villagers all you have to do is stop your Partisans from murdering members of the German Occupation Force - it's entirely up to you'
and to use your analogy, the tiger that the Palestinians are 'poking with a stick' is the one that came over, lay on them and seems determined to suffocate them.
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T3 - as pointed out on another related thread, we have heard that perverted logic before:
Crete for example
'If you want us to stop massacring villagers all you have to do is stop your Partisans from murdering members of the German Occupation Force - it's entirely up to you'
and to use your analogy, the tiger that the Palestinians are 'poking with a stick' is the one that came over, lay on them and seems determined to suffocate them.
we
there is an incredibly long and twisted history between Jews and Arabs of various colours in Palestine and Israel, also bear in mind that we had some Christian ding-dongs out there in the name of Jesus - look at Jerusalem with all it different sects holy places.
The 1st world war/League of Nations offer was first to establish a Jewish state in Patagonia. This was turned down by the then Jewish leaders who wanted their lands back. Come the creation of Israel at the end of WW2 1948, led by David Ben-Gurion, the country was a magnet for Jews tweaked by the Nazis - then we had the Eastern European/Russian exodus, often overtly and covertly sponsored by the communist governments. It's a hell of a mess and, in truth, until we have another Ben-Gurion and his/her equivalent within the Palestinians to provide real leadership, it will probably remain 'strained' with flare-ups like this.
Hammas are probably responsible but what Israel under Nettenyahu are doing is lamentable - a much more covert elimination programme should have been used, like blowing up the tunnels and removing them.....there's no need to bring down whole blocks of buildings, schools and hospitals to take out one or two Hammas militia. Look at the respective death tolls - that alone reflects the extremism of the Israelis in this. And for Nettenyahu, of course it helps support his leadership and popularity in a country fragile in its internal politics and economy, not unlike one President Putin and his strength/popularity pre and post Crimea.
The 1st world war/League of Nations offer was first to establish a Jewish state in Patagonia. This was turned down by the then Jewish leaders who wanted their lands back. Come the creation of Israel at the end of WW2 1948, led by David Ben-Gurion, the country was a magnet for Jews tweaked by the Nazis - then we had the Eastern European/Russian exodus, often overtly and covertly sponsored by the communist governments. It's a hell of a mess and, in truth, until we have another Ben-Gurion and his/her equivalent within the Palestinians to provide real leadership, it will probably remain 'strained' with flare-ups like this.
Hammas are probably responsible but what Israel under Nettenyahu are doing is lamentable - a much more covert elimination programme should have been used, like blowing up the tunnels and removing them.....there's no need to bring down whole blocks of buildings, schools and hospitals to take out one or two Hammas militia. Look at the respective death tolls - that alone reflects the extremism of the Israelis in this. And for Nettenyahu, of course it helps support his leadership and popularity in a country fragile in its internal politics and economy, not unlike one President Putin and his strength/popularity pre and post Crimea.
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