News1 min ago
Will Cornick Can Be Named As The Killer Of The Teacher, Judge Rules.
Is this a good or bad thing?
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Andy - I worked with murderers, rapists, paedophiles...etc, they aren't kept in a cell 23 hours a day. They have a room each with washing facilities. They have a lounge where they spend the day when not attending sessions. Some wards have pool tables, table tennis. They get to use the gym and swimming pool, have art sessions, schooling, get days out to theme parks, cinema, shopping. It's not a punishment, it's often better than anything they've ever known.
It doesn't seem to be the case with this young man.
It doesn't seem to be the case with this young man.
I didnt say not having a father around made people murderers I said they are more likely to commit crimes. There is a huge amount of evidence to support that statement - here is just one study.http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/co-parenting-after-divorce/201205/father-absence-father-deficit-father-hunger
and a quote from it "Given the fact that these and other social problems correlate more strongly with fatherlessness than with any other factor, surpassing race, social class and poverty, father absence may well be the most critical social issue of our time."
and a quote from it "Given the fact that these and other social problems correlate more strongly with fatherlessness than with any other factor, surpassing race, social class and poverty, father absence may well be the most critical social issue of our time."
ummmm - "Andy - I worked with murderers, rapists, paedophiles...etc, they aren't kept in a cell 23 hours a day. They have a room each with washing facilities. They have a lounge where they spend the day when not attending sessions. Some wards have pool tables, table tennis. They get to use the gym and swimming pool, have art sessions, schooling, get days out to theme parks, cinema, shopping. It's not a punishment, it's often better than anything they've ever known."
I made no mention of incarceration in a cell for 23 hours a day.
The point I am arguing is that punishing a sociopath - if indeed that is what this young man is, and there is no proof either way yet - then the concept of punishment would be redundant, since he would not understand it, which renders it pointless.
The accommodation you suggests does sound very pleasant - although I doubt that the outside visits would be included in this case.
I am not quite sure what point you are making – do you feel that accommodation for secure metal patients is too comfortable? Given that they are under treatment, not punishment, I am not sure why you would not want them to enjoy a reasonable degree of comfort –as is extended to hospital patients with physical conditions.
Or am I missing the point?
I made no mention of incarceration in a cell for 23 hours a day.
The point I am arguing is that punishing a sociopath - if indeed that is what this young man is, and there is no proof either way yet - then the concept of punishment would be redundant, since he would not understand it, which renders it pointless.
The accommodation you suggests does sound very pleasant - although I doubt that the outside visits would be included in this case.
I am not quite sure what point you are making – do you feel that accommodation for secure metal patients is too comfortable? Given that they are under treatment, not punishment, I am not sure why you would not want them to enjoy a reasonable degree of comfort –as is extended to hospital patients with physical conditions.
Or am I missing the point?
Precisely anne, which is my point entirely.
Far too much consideration has been given throughout this question (and elsewhere) to the effect the sentence will have on the criminal here. Quite frankly his needs and requirements are zero. In this particular case since rehabilitation seems a virtual non-starter and reparation is not possible the two aims of the sentence that remain are punishment and prevention of crime. Locking him up for a long time achieves both these aims. Whether or not he appreciates he is being punished because of the state of his mind is neither here nor there and I cannot accept Andy's contention that we should not send him to prison as he might commit crimes whilst in there. (On that basis most violent prisoners would become ineligible for detention).
Far too much consideration has been given throughout this question (and elsewhere) to the effect the sentence will have on the criminal here. Quite frankly his needs and requirements are zero. In this particular case since rehabilitation seems a virtual non-starter and reparation is not possible the two aims of the sentence that remain are punishment and prevention of crime. Locking him up for a long time achieves both these aims. Whether or not he appreciates he is being punished because of the state of his mind is neither here nor there and I cannot accept Andy's contention that we should not send him to prison as he might commit crimes whilst in there. (On that basis most violent prisoners would become ineligible for detention).
New Judge - "Far too much consideration has been given throughout this question (and elsewhere) to the effect the sentence will have on the criminal here."
I would not for one moment wish to appear to be concerned for the rights of the criminal over and above those of the victim and her family, but that does not mean that there are not areas of concern to be addressed where is is concerned.
"Quite frankly his needs and requirements are zero."
That is patently not the case, and you know that full well. As a civlised society, we no longer lock up murderers and throw away the key, much as some on here would wish us so to do.
I believe that we cannot allow the emotional reaction to this terrible crime to cloud our judgement when looking at the best way to deal with the criminal.
That is not the same as giving him a 'soft option' and it is a million miles away from giving him rights other than those to which he is entitled as a possibly mentally ill person - although of course this is still to be detemined.
" In this particular case since rehabilitation seema virtual non-starter and reparation is not possible the two aims of the sentence that remain are punishment and prevention of crime. Locking him up for a long time achieves both these aims."
It remains to be seen if rehabilitation is a non-starter - full medical assessment has yet to be completed, or at least advised - and until then that statement is not valid.
" Whether or not he appreciates he is being punished because of the state of his mind is neither here nor there ..."
It is absolutely here and indeed there. If people commit crimes because of mental illness, then punishment is inhumane, whether the patient understsands the concept of that punishment is not the issue - it is society at large that is responsible for its laws, and the legal system, works because it takes a dispassionate view of the facts, and acts on those, not the emotions aroused by the circumstances of this crime, or any other.
" ,,, and I cannot accept Andy's contention that we should not send him to prison as he might commit crimes whilst in there. (On that basis most violent prisoners would become ineligible for detention)."
My contention is that if the murderer is found to be a sociopath, he represents a clear danger to other inmates and staff in a standard prison setting, and a secure psychiatric facility would be an appopriate place for him. If it is found that he is in full posession of his faculties, and knew what he was doing and why, them standard incarceration would be appropriate.
I would not for one moment wish to appear to be concerned for the rights of the criminal over and above those of the victim and her family, but that does not mean that there are not areas of concern to be addressed where is is concerned.
"Quite frankly his needs and requirements are zero."
That is patently not the case, and you know that full well. As a civlised society, we no longer lock up murderers and throw away the key, much as some on here would wish us so to do.
I believe that we cannot allow the emotional reaction to this terrible crime to cloud our judgement when looking at the best way to deal with the criminal.
That is not the same as giving him a 'soft option' and it is a million miles away from giving him rights other than those to which he is entitled as a possibly mentally ill person - although of course this is still to be detemined.
" In this particular case since rehabilitation seema virtual non-starter and reparation is not possible the two aims of the sentence that remain are punishment and prevention of crime. Locking him up for a long time achieves both these aims."
It remains to be seen if rehabilitation is a non-starter - full medical assessment has yet to be completed, or at least advised - and until then that statement is not valid.
" Whether or not he appreciates he is being punished because of the state of his mind is neither here nor there ..."
It is absolutely here and indeed there. If people commit crimes because of mental illness, then punishment is inhumane, whether the patient understsands the concept of that punishment is not the issue - it is society at large that is responsible for its laws, and the legal system, works because it takes a dispassionate view of the facts, and acts on those, not the emotions aroused by the circumstances of this crime, or any other.
" ,,, and I cannot accept Andy's contention that we should not send him to prison as he might commit crimes whilst in there. (On that basis most violent prisoners would become ineligible for detention)."
My contention is that if the murderer is found to be a sociopath, he represents a clear danger to other inmates and staff in a standard prison setting, and a secure psychiatric facility would be an appopriate place for him. If it is found that he is in full posession of his faculties, and knew what he was doing and why, them standard incarceration would be appropriate.
'Sociopath' is just a way of labelling a certain type of horrible person, that share a number of common behavioural traits with other similar horrible people.
The prisons are full of them, and also wider society is full of them, because like anyone else most of them make a choice to avoid breaking the law because they don't want to go to prison.
It isn't an illness that absolves you of responsibility, and you shouldn't get extra brownie points for being one when it comes time to deciding what punishment you deserve for committing a despicable crime.
The prisons are full of them, and also wider society is full of them, because like anyone else most of them make a choice to avoid breaking the law because they don't want to go to prison.
It isn't an illness that absolves you of responsibility, and you shouldn't get extra brownie points for being one when it comes time to deciding what punishment you deserve for committing a despicable crime.
Because, Andy, the prison services are too quick to label someone with mental illness. Get rid of them.
I've worked with people that are saner than me....they are just good actors.
I have the deepest sympathy for the disturbed mind but some people are just born bad and they can't apportion blame to anyone.
I've worked with people that are saner than me....they are just good actors.
I have the deepest sympathy for the disturbed mind but some people are just born bad and they can't apportion blame to anyone.
ludwig - "'Sociopath' is just a way of labelling a certain type of horrible person, that share a number of common behavioural traits with other similar horrible people."
Dictionary definition - 'a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.
"The prisons are full of them, and also wider society is full of them, because like anyone else most of them make a choice to avoid breaking the law because they don't want to go to prison."
Yes they make a choice - but their mental condition means they feel no sense of responsibility or guilt.
"It isn't an illness that absolves you of responsibility, and you shouldn't get extra brownie points for being one when it comes time to deciding what punishment you deserve for committing a despicable crime."
Actually that is exsactly what it is.
Punishment is only appropriate if the person being punished understands the concepts of crime and punishment - a sociopath understands neither, making the concept of punishment redundant.
But as I have said each time I have posted on this subject - the complete mental condition of the individual under discussion has yet to be assessed, so it remains to be seen if he is suitable for punishment, or treatment.
Dictionary definition - 'a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.
"The prisons are full of them, and also wider society is full of them, because like anyone else most of them make a choice to avoid breaking the law because they don't want to go to prison."
Yes they make a choice - but their mental condition means they feel no sense of responsibility or guilt.
"It isn't an illness that absolves you of responsibility, and you shouldn't get extra brownie points for being one when it comes time to deciding what punishment you deserve for committing a despicable crime."
Actually that is exsactly what it is.
Punishment is only appropriate if the person being punished understands the concepts of crime and punishment - a sociopath understands neither, making the concept of punishment redundant.
But as I have said each time I have posted on this subject - the complete mental condition of the individual under discussion has yet to be assessed, so it remains to be seen if he is suitable for punishment, or treatment.
In this case in particular, Andy, I would contend that the requirements of the criminal are non-existent (short of keeping him sheltered, fed and watered). Virtually every person who commits a crime in these circumstances and demonstrates the attitude that this young man has displayed throughout could be called a sociopath by your definition. Burglars, rapists, robbers, muggers - all sorts - often exhibit behaviour which is “...antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.” The very nature of many of their crimes show quite clearly that they have no moral or social conscience. Giving them a label does not alter that.
As I said much earlier, it could be argued that anybody committing such a vile crime must be sick. It’s not an argument to which I subscribe. I accept that some people are simply bad without necessarily being mad and young Mr Cornick numbers amongst them.
As I said much earlier, it could be argued that anybody committing such a vile crime must be sick. It’s not an argument to which I subscribe. I accept that some people are simply bad without necessarily being mad and young Mr Cornick numbers amongst them.
// Dictionary definition - 'a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience. //
The dictionary confirms my own description then. Good.
// Yes they make a choice - but their mental condition means they feel no sense of responsibility or guilt. //
That's irrelevant. In fact it's all the more reason to impose a longer sentence - which often happens. The fact that the criminal expresses no remorse is often cited as a reason for harsher sentencing by judges - quite rightly in my opinion.
//Punishment is only appropriate if the person being punished understands the concepts of crime and punishment - a sociopath understands neither, making the concept of punishment redundant. //
You're wrong andy. A sociopath does understand the concepts of crime of punishment. They lack empathy - they would stick a knife in you and feel nothing more than they would treading on an ant, but they know it's a crime to do so. They know that it will cause suffering to the victim and their friends and family, and they know society will punish them for it because society considers it to be wrong.
They are capable of making a choice.
Compare and contrast this with say people suffering from schizophrenia, who if not properly medicated, literally do not know what they're doing, and can't reasonably be held criminally accountable for their actions.
The dictionary confirms my own description then. Good.
// Yes they make a choice - but their mental condition means they feel no sense of responsibility or guilt. //
That's irrelevant. In fact it's all the more reason to impose a longer sentence - which often happens. The fact that the criminal expresses no remorse is often cited as a reason for harsher sentencing by judges - quite rightly in my opinion.
//Punishment is only appropriate if the person being punished understands the concepts of crime and punishment - a sociopath understands neither, making the concept of punishment redundant. //
You're wrong andy. A sociopath does understand the concepts of crime of punishment. They lack empathy - they would stick a knife in you and feel nothing more than they would treading on an ant, but they know it's a crime to do so. They know that it will cause suffering to the victim and their friends and family, and they know society will punish them for it because society considers it to be wrong.
They are capable of making a choice.
Compare and contrast this with say people suffering from schizophrenia, who if not properly medicated, literally do not know what they're doing, and can't reasonably be held criminally accountable for their actions.
It's interesting - that we are all arguing about a crime of which we only know from the media, and a set of people whom we don;t know at all.
So in theory, we should all possess an equally detached attitude to the circumstances.
I believe this not to be tbe case, and a number of posters are allowing their anger to influence what they believe the punishment should be, even though, as I keep saying, the mental state of the individual concerned remains to be assessed, by people who do it for a living, rather than any armchair psychiatrists who seem to want revenge first and other options not at all.
So in theory, we should all possess an equally detached attitude to the circumstances.
I believe this not to be tbe case, and a number of posters are allowing their anger to influence what they believe the punishment should be, even though, as I keep saying, the mental state of the individual concerned remains to be assessed, by people who do it for a living, rather than any armchair psychiatrists who seem to want revenge first and other options not at all.
I don't think it'll make a difference to the family. He will always be the evil person that murdered their loved one and any tears of remorse will be viewed as crocodile tears.
I do think he's mentally ill but not ill enough to be sent to a psych hospital.
Most of the patients I worked with were victims. We read the case histories and understand their mental illness. Let down by their parents, family, society, physically, emotionally, sexually, abused. This young man, as far as we know, hasn't suffered.
He could just have the bad gene.
I'm all for counselling and rehabilitation but in some cases it's a lost cause.
I do think he's mentally ill but not ill enough to be sent to a psych hospital.
Most of the patients I worked with were victims. We read the case histories and understand their mental illness. Let down by their parents, family, society, physically, emotionally, sexually, abused. This young man, as far as we know, hasn't suffered.
He could just have the bad gene.
I'm all for counselling and rehabilitation but in some cases it's a lost cause.
ludwig - "// rather than any armchair psychiatrists who seem to want revenge first and other options not at all. //
It's rather strange that you'd classify imprisonment as 'revenge' andy."
I don't class imprisonment as revenge, but I do class the motication behind such fervent wishes for it, as revenge.
It's rather strange that you'd classify imprisonment as 'revenge' andy."
I don't class imprisonment as revenge, but I do class the motication behind such fervent wishes for it, as revenge.
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