ChatterBank2 mins ago
The Greeks Have Done It !
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Gromit
Not sure what New Judge's dining has anything to do with anything. I went to a none EU country in 1999 and it was very cheap. I returned this year, and food and drinks were similar to UK prices. No EU or €uro influence.
13:14 Mon 13th Jul 2015Report
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I wonder if that is down to the internet? Via social networks, they get to hear the comments about how cheap the prices are in their country, so they adjust their self-worth and jack them up, sharpish, in time for the next intake of tourists.
I cannot help thinking this is bad, in the sense that they either have to adopt dual pricing (one for tourists and another for locals), or locals are forced to demand higher wages, setting off local inflation.
2 more pages to catch up on. brb
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Gromit
Not sure what New Judge's dining has anything to do with anything. I went to a none EU country in 1999 and it was very cheap. I returned this year, and food and drinks were similar to UK prices. No EU or €uro influence.
13:14 Mon 13th Jul 2015Report
//
I wonder if that is down to the internet? Via social networks, they get to hear the comments about how cheap the prices are in their country, so they adjust their self-worth and jack them up, sharpish, in time for the next intake of tourists.
I cannot help thinking this is bad, in the sense that they either have to adopt dual pricing (one for tourists and another for locals), or locals are forced to demand higher wages, setting off local inflation.
2 more pages to catch up on. brb
So, when New Judge revisited Greece and paid in €uro, why was he not, again, paying a quarter to a third what he pays, elsewhere in Europe?
Who decided that the value of Greek labour, goods and services was now equal to those of other countries: Greeks or EUnians?
Indeed, who decided that, in past decades, Greek labour goods and services had devalued, relative to those of other countries?
What really sets the value of a currency? Is the Deutschmark high because the country highly productive and the Drachma wirthless because it was a quiet backwater which didn't produce much and just did tourism and a bit of fishing?
Do they even manufacture their own 'tourist tat', or is that from the Far East?
All this debate about Greece and the €uro and I understand very little of it. I hear that the "cheated" in some way to qualify for entry. Was this where the mega-loans were first deployed? Did they have existing debts anyway (like the ones other countries do)?
Who decided that the value of Greek labour, goods and services was now equal to those of other countries: Greeks or EUnians?
Indeed, who decided that, in past decades, Greek labour goods and services had devalued, relative to those of other countries?
What really sets the value of a currency? Is the Deutschmark high because the country highly productive and the Drachma wirthless because it was a quiet backwater which didn't produce much and just did tourism and a bit of fishing?
Do they even manufacture their own 'tourist tat', or is that from the Far East?
All this debate about Greece and the €uro and I understand very little of it. I hear that the "cheated" in some way to qualify for entry. Was this where the mega-loans were first deployed? Did they have existing debts anyway (like the ones other countries do)?
How much would Welsh independence set us back, tax-wise, Svejk?
They used that as a club against the (Scottish) Yes campaign and they'll use it again. Decentralising something which is administered in London means adding the overhead of setting up the devolved one, in Cardiff. Having the WA and a second set of pollys already costs everyone, in the UK, money, doesn't it? I'm sure it is more than anothet talking shop but that's the dismissive phrase, I've heard used.
They used that as a club against the (Scottish) Yes campaign and they'll use it again. Decentralising something which is administered in London means adding the overhead of setting up the devolved one, in Cardiff. Having the WA and a second set of pollys already costs everyone, in the UK, money, doesn't it? I'm sure it is more than anothet talking shop but that's the dismissive phrase, I've heard used.
@Svejk
Borrow and spend is justified if you get immediate use of something NOW, which will last a long time, hopefully longer than the life of the loan.
You pay the mortgage 25 years but the house will last the rest of your life.
If you bought a Lamborghini, it will be a rustpile or send you into a hedge in under 10 years but you will still be paying off the loan in your dotage. Your children and grandchildren will think themselves lucky if they are not also to be expected to continue the payments.
Do you think a Welsh government will launch straight into white elephant projects, pretending it is infrastructure investment, which no private sector setup would embark upon, knowing it to be unworkable (terrain in the way) or unprofitable (not enough customers)? The sort of things they pursue for electoral gains, not what the country's priority needs are?
Borrow and spend is justified if you get immediate use of something NOW, which will last a long time, hopefully longer than the life of the loan.
You pay the mortgage 25 years but the house will last the rest of your life.
If you bought a Lamborghini, it will be a rustpile or send you into a hedge in under 10 years but you will still be paying off the loan in your dotage. Your children and grandchildren will think themselves lucky if they are not also to be expected to continue the payments.
Do you think a Welsh government will launch straight into white elephant projects, pretending it is infrastructure investment, which no private sector setup would embark upon, knowing it to be unworkable (terrain in the way) or unprofitable (not enough customers)? The sort of things they pursue for electoral gains, not what the country's priority needs are?
Before Greece joined the €uro, it's borrowing was very expensive, about 18%. When it joined the €uro in 2002 the cost of borrowing suddenly got very cheap, about 3% and they quickly racked up a lot of debt. When the Financial Crash came in 2008, the international credit agencies suddenly changed Greeces rating and the cost of borrowing became very expensive again. It could no longer afford to borrow conventionally, so it had to ask for a bailout. It got more money, but the problem of how it would repay it remained.
Everyone knew in 2000 that Greece fudged the figures to meet the criteria for joining the €uro, so the EU are culpable too for Greeces problems.
Everyone knew in 2000 that Greece fudged the figures to meet the criteria for joining the €uro, so the EU are culpable too for Greeces problems.
"so the EU are culpable too for Greeces problems. "
but they didnt care, all they want is to get control of every european nation it possibly can....it really is that simple...everything else is just a sideshow and a distraction...they are trying to build an empire they really only care about eventual takeover and domination....
its like an expensive nightclub...they know you cant really afford it but, once youre in theyll get whatever is in your pocket...better than nothing
but they didnt care, all they want is to get control of every european nation it possibly can....it really is that simple...everything else is just a sideshow and a distraction...they are trying to build an empire they really only care about eventual takeover and domination....
its like an expensive nightclub...they know you cant really afford it but, once youre in theyll get whatever is in your pocket...better than nothing
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@Gromit
Thanks for the historical background. I do watch Newsnight etc but must have missed the edition where they explained it and they don't revisit the backstory, they expect viewers to be up to speed.
They behaved the same way any human would where a scarce (or tasty) resource is snapped up, in bulk, when its price is cut by a factor of 6!!
I strongly suspect that the banks knew this would happen or fell over themselves to get Greece hooked on their product but I can't state that, categorically, as there is no proof, only external resemblance. Cynical exploitation, if true.
I could suggest it should be written off, to teach the banksters a lesson but I don't know which investors that would have a knock-on effect on. The review of the papers (BBC News channel) zoomed in on a column saying that UK is in to the tune of a billion, if a write-off occurs but didn't see/hear which paper that was from.
@birdie
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The Greek bail-out is simply delaying the inevitable. There's no way they can possibly pay back this loan. //
I suppose it all boils down to Greece's GDP? If they no longer manufacture cars, big domestic goods or electronics then they are left with tourism and speciality food. Not massive earners. You'd need dozens of tourists to finance the importation of one (likely German) car. Paying down the debt means stopping buying these imports - which then shafts most of its Euro neighbours.
(First draft of this post was lost and this bit was better written. What makes up its GDP. I speculated that its internal market (goods and services to its own citizens) do not effectively contribute to debt pay-back; only exports can.
//When (not if) Greece leaves the Euro, the Euro collapses
No matter how many times I hear this, I fail to see how the latter follows from the former. Is it as if such a large chunk of the gold, underpinning the currency, has evaporated that all the remaining cash loses value??
Or is it more macro than that - other members realising they too can have their debt written off?
//and with it the larger EU. //
Can't the governmental operation be maintained independently of currency issues? Again, I can't see how EU collapse necessarily follows currency collapse.
(First draft closing paragraph lost; can't recall what point I was trying to make)
Thanks for the historical background. I do watch Newsnight etc but must have missed the edition where they explained it and they don't revisit the backstory, they expect viewers to be up to speed.
They behaved the same way any human would where a scarce (or tasty) resource is snapped up, in bulk, when its price is cut by a factor of 6!!
I strongly suspect that the banks knew this would happen or fell over themselves to get Greece hooked on their product but I can't state that, categorically, as there is no proof, only external resemblance. Cynical exploitation, if true.
I could suggest it should be written off, to teach the banksters a lesson but I don't know which investors that would have a knock-on effect on. The review of the papers (BBC News channel) zoomed in on a column saying that UK is in to the tune of a billion, if a write-off occurs but didn't see/hear which paper that was from.
@birdie
//
The Greek bail-out is simply delaying the inevitable. There's no way they can possibly pay back this loan. //
I suppose it all boils down to Greece's GDP? If they no longer manufacture cars, big domestic goods or electronics then they are left with tourism and speciality food. Not massive earners. You'd need dozens of tourists to finance the importation of one (likely German) car. Paying down the debt means stopping buying these imports - which then shafts most of its Euro neighbours.
(First draft of this post was lost and this bit was better written. What makes up its GDP. I speculated that its internal market (goods and services to its own citizens) do not effectively contribute to debt pay-back; only exports can.
//When (not if) Greece leaves the Euro, the Euro collapses
No matter how many times I hear this, I fail to see how the latter follows from the former. Is it as if such a large chunk of the gold, underpinning the currency, has evaporated that all the remaining cash loses value??
Or is it more macro than that - other members realising they too can have their debt written off?
//and with it the larger EU. //
Can't the governmental operation be maintained independently of currency issues? Again, I can't see how EU collapse necessarily follows currency collapse.
(First draft closing paragraph lost; can't recall what point I was trying to make)
Another appropriate response from Nigel;
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