ChatterBank0 min ago
Little Boy Washed Up Dead On Turkish Beach
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This is a heart-breaking picture. What do our "righties" think ? Should we help these people or not ? This refugee crisis is now being talked about as the worst in Europe since WW2.
The full story is here ::
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Just in case anyone thinks this is the Guardian making its usual fuss, this is the Independent today :::
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This is a heart-breaking picture. What do our "righties" think ? Should we help these people or not ? This refugee crisis is now being talked about as the worst in Europe since WW2.
The full story is here ::
http://
Just in case anyone thinks this is the Guardian making its usual fuss, this is the Independent today :::
http://
Answers
Surley we can do something? Even if its not "opening the floodgates" surley we can still help?? This breaks my heart- the horror. Id be on that boat trying to save my childs life if god forbid i was in that situation. There must be something our countries can do between us all to help. I work with a gentleman whos sister was planning on getting a boat she lives in...
09:52 Thu 03rd Sep 2015
anotheroldgit: I do take your point but just feel that ignoring this is morally wrong. I agree that something needs to be done to alleviate the suffering and abuse in these peoples homeland but until a solution is reached can we just stand by and say not in my backyard? Whatever decisions are taken they will be unpalatable to many. Emotive or not it needs addressing. As to those on these pages who are talking 'photo manipulation'...........??? Words fail...
//the EU needs to work together (for a change) to equally distribute and alleviate the pain. Politics and compassion should not be blurred. ///
It would appear that Germany's accountancy is very much suspect when it comes to "equal distribution". As a link I provided earlier from the Daily Mail illustrates. We have been taking in thousands of migrants since the start of the millennium. A fact conveniently ignored.
It might be worth considering how this crisis reached Europe when you decide at the referendum.
Mrs Merkel happy to bully EU countries within her dream of the Federation of European States with herself as the fuhruer.
They all dived into signing Schengen. They all embraced the Euro. When it all goes pear shaped they cry foul against the UK for not giving enough bail out money to support their failing currency and criticise us,when no criticism is due,for failing to take our share of migrants when their Schengen farce bites them in the ass. Now she wants to cancel Schengen.
Do we really want to be part of this failed Europe.They can't organise the proverbial in a brewery but can extort vast sums of money but are impotent when a crisis hits their borders.
It would appear that Germany's accountancy is very much suspect when it comes to "equal distribution". As a link I provided earlier from the Daily Mail illustrates. We have been taking in thousands of migrants since the start of the millennium. A fact conveniently ignored.
It might be worth considering how this crisis reached Europe when you decide at the referendum.
Mrs Merkel happy to bully EU countries within her dream of the Federation of European States with herself as the fuhruer.
They all dived into signing Schengen. They all embraced the Euro. When it all goes pear shaped they cry foul against the UK for not giving enough bail out money to support their failing currency and criticise us,when no criticism is due,for failing to take our share of migrants when their Schengen farce bites them in the ass. Now she wants to cancel Schengen.
Do we really want to be part of this failed Europe.They can't organise the proverbial in a brewery but can extort vast sums of money but are impotent when a crisis hits their borders.
I haven’t read all of this so forgive me if I’m making any points already made.
Whether or not the EU can absorb a limitless flow of migrants (and it certainly cannot) is not the point. The report says the family were “…making a final, desperate attempt to flee to relatives in Canada even though their asylum application had been rejected, according to reports.” Why, for heavens’ sake? They had been told that they had not been given leave to arrive in Canada. How on earth did they think they would make it from Europe to Canada without papers?
I understand they were fleeing Syria. But they must have been safe in Turkey (I haven’t heard of any mass slayings, bombings or gassings taking place in that country). So why did they risk this boy’s life in a rubber dinghy on the Aegean Sea?
These people do not have the right of entry to the EU. Economic migrants (which very many of them are) have no right of entry at all. Furthermore the claims of those seeking asylum are invalid if they arrive in the EU from another safe country. Turkey is, as far as I know, a safe country. There are plenty of countries where Syrian Muslims can seek refuge other than those in Europe.
We are asked to believe that this particular family was making their way to Canada (having already been denied access there). Sorry, I do not buy it. However desperate they may have been it should have been obvious to them that they would not reach Canada via Greece.
I agree that a lot of the blame for this lies with people smugglers. But the ultimate blame lies with the migrants themselves who are making the wrong choice in seeking refuge in Europe. This is exacerbated by the ridiculous mess that the EU has contrived for itself with its now clearly dysfunctional Schengen Agreement. The migrants need to be told that they do not have the freedom to roam all over the Continent “in search of a better life”. Harsh as it is, that should not be an option open to them and the sooner word gets round the better.
These scenes will not alter my stance. In fact if anything they harden it. People from Africa and Asia have other choices than to seek to settle in Europe and the sooner they begin to take the sooner scenes such as this tragedy will diminish.
Whether or not the EU can absorb a limitless flow of migrants (and it certainly cannot) is not the point. The report says the family were “…making a final, desperate attempt to flee to relatives in Canada even though their asylum application had been rejected, according to reports.” Why, for heavens’ sake? They had been told that they had not been given leave to arrive in Canada. How on earth did they think they would make it from Europe to Canada without papers?
I understand they were fleeing Syria. But they must have been safe in Turkey (I haven’t heard of any mass slayings, bombings or gassings taking place in that country). So why did they risk this boy’s life in a rubber dinghy on the Aegean Sea?
These people do not have the right of entry to the EU. Economic migrants (which very many of them are) have no right of entry at all. Furthermore the claims of those seeking asylum are invalid if they arrive in the EU from another safe country. Turkey is, as far as I know, a safe country. There are plenty of countries where Syrian Muslims can seek refuge other than those in Europe.
We are asked to believe that this particular family was making their way to Canada (having already been denied access there). Sorry, I do not buy it. However desperate they may have been it should have been obvious to them that they would not reach Canada via Greece.
I agree that a lot of the blame for this lies with people smugglers. But the ultimate blame lies with the migrants themselves who are making the wrong choice in seeking refuge in Europe. This is exacerbated by the ridiculous mess that the EU has contrived for itself with its now clearly dysfunctional Schengen Agreement. The migrants need to be told that they do not have the freedom to roam all over the Continent “in search of a better life”. Harsh as it is, that should not be an option open to them and the sooner word gets round the better.
These scenes will not alter my stance. In fact if anything they harden it. People from Africa and Asia have other choices than to seek to settle in Europe and the sooner they begin to take the sooner scenes such as this tragedy will diminish.
Of course it's heart-breaking and there will be other little bodies washed up on beaches out of the range of photographers, they are being eaten by birds, crabs etc.. It's horrible. Do I think of my 6-yr-old grandson? Yes. It doesn't change anything. The parents were in a 'safe' country, I understand.
M4's (mikey4444 - I'm trying out a newly abbreviated name for you!)
I think that picture will define this year.
It's one of the few pictures I can remember that have properly stopped me in my tracks. I don't think I'll ever forget it.
And I think it's prompted a question that's being interpreted incorrectly. The answer to 'how many can we take' is not 'none of them' or 'all of them'. It's somewhere in between, because not all of the refugees are actually coming to the UK. The West needs to decide and broker a deal between the UN nations and the EU to decide how best to accommodate the people affected by this crisis.
More can be done, but unfortunately, the other migrant crisis might be clouding our collective judgement.
Oh, and by the way:
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I think that picture will define this year.
It's one of the few pictures I can remember that have properly stopped me in my tracks. I don't think I'll ever forget it.
And I think it's prompted a question that's being interpreted incorrectly. The answer to 'how many can we take' is not 'none of them' or 'all of them'. It's somewhere in between, because not all of the refugees are actually coming to the UK. The West needs to decide and broker a deal between the UN nations and the EU to decide how best to accommodate the people affected by this crisis.
More can be done, but unfortunately, the other migrant crisis might be clouding our collective judgement.
Oh, and by the way:
http://
The picture will do no such thing, sp.
What it demonstrates is that people are taking risks with their own and their families' safety in trying to do something they have no necessity to do. The moral blackmail now being wheeled out does nothing to alter the fact that these people were not under threat in Turkey. They had no need to set out in rubber boats on to the high seas. They did so because they sought richer pastures, which they knew they were unlikely to be afforded via the proper channels. They did not do so because they sought safety - they already had that. The little boy tragically paid with his life but that does not suddenly mean that the game has changed one jot.
What it demonstrates is that people are taking risks with their own and their families' safety in trying to do something they have no necessity to do. The moral blackmail now being wheeled out does nothing to alter the fact that these people were not under threat in Turkey. They had no need to set out in rubber boats on to the high seas. They did so because they sought richer pastures, which they knew they were unlikely to be afforded via the proper channels. They did not do so because they sought safety - they already had that. The little boy tragically paid with his life but that does not suddenly mean that the game has changed one jot.
-- answer removed --
NJ
Well, we're already three quarters of the way through the year, and this story is enormous. I can't think of any other which is absolutely guaranteed to be featured in the end-of-year round ups that the newspapers and tv news shows do at the end of December.
And to say that the game has not changed one jot might be a little short-sighted. I think I'll wait to see how people react.
...because what this picture has done is put a very human face on the story. Instead of thinking of refugees as cockroaches or swarms (basically a faceless horde), there are many who will associate 'refugee' with this dead child.
Especially parents.
Well, we're already three quarters of the way through the year, and this story is enormous. I can't think of any other which is absolutely guaranteed to be featured in the end-of-year round ups that the newspapers and tv news shows do at the end of December.
And to say that the game has not changed one jot might be a little short-sighted. I think I'll wait to see how people react.
...because what this picture has done is put a very human face on the story. Instead of thinking of refugees as cockroaches or swarms (basically a faceless horde), there are many who will associate 'refugee' with this dead child.
Especially parents.
NJ
Could you enlighten me please as to the Treaties enshrined within the lnternational laws of Asylum.
If refugees get to the shores of Italy and Italy decide through processing,fingerprinting (not been done apparently) and ID (Not much of that being produced either) that ,say,20,000 are deemed genuine asylum seekers from a war ravished country and they are in GENUINE need of sanctuary and the Italian government say to the rest of the signees of the Dublin agreement etc, "We have satisfied ourselves of the bona fides of 20,000 people and they are entitled to Asylum status"
Can Italy now say that they have not enough room for those who they deem genuine under the rules of the treaty and other countries must take some of the burden as they have deemed them genuine?
Could you enlighten me please as to the Treaties enshrined within the lnternational laws of Asylum.
If refugees get to the shores of Italy and Italy decide through processing,fingerprinting (not been done apparently) and ID (Not much of that being produced either) that ,say,20,000 are deemed genuine asylum seekers from a war ravished country and they are in GENUINE need of sanctuary and the Italian government say to the rest of the signees of the Dublin agreement etc, "We have satisfied ourselves of the bona fides of 20,000 people and they are entitled to Asylum status"
Can Italy now say that they have not enough room for those who they deem genuine under the rules of the treaty and other countries must take some of the burden as they have deemed them genuine?
sp1814
Well, we're already three quarters of the way through the year, and this story is enormous. I can't think of any other which is absolutely guaranteed to be featured in the end-of-year round ups that the newspapers and tv news shows do at the end of December.
Really?
http://
Well, we're already three quarters of the way through the year, and this story is enormous. I can't think of any other which is absolutely guaranteed to be featured in the end-of-year round ups that the newspapers and tv news shows do at the end of December.
Really?
http://
I don’t think it will be as complex as that, Retro.
I imagine that, after confirming their bona fides as you describe, they will simply issue them with Italian (i.e. EU) passports and Bob’s Your Uncle. Armed with that document the world (or at least the EU) will be their lobster. They will have the right of abode anywhere in the EU – including of course the UK. That’s why I believe many of them are not genuine asylum seekers. If they were to apply for asylum in the first EU country they enter, after going through the formalities they would have the freedom to settle anywhere in the EU. No camping in the jungle in Calais, no fighting to get on trains in Budapest. Of course, if they were not genuine refugees and they thought this fact may be discovered…..
I don’t think making the cut in the end of the year round up is to significant, sp. Such summaries will probably also include a slot on the latest part of his anatomy that David Beckham has had tattooed and a piece on the winner of the latest amateur cake baking contest on the telly. Nobody takes too much notice of them. Of course the government will almost certainly react to this latest outpouring of false outrage and imagined grief by allowing a “small number” (probably about 100,000) migrants to settle here “on humanitarian grounds”. The bigger outrage of course is such action will only encourage more people to risk their lives and those of young children by taking to the sea in rubber boats fleeing from perfect safety simply on the basis that they fancy a “warmer welcome and better prospects” than they have where they currently are.
I imagine that, after confirming their bona fides as you describe, they will simply issue them with Italian (i.e. EU) passports and Bob’s Your Uncle. Armed with that document the world (or at least the EU) will be their lobster. They will have the right of abode anywhere in the EU – including of course the UK. That’s why I believe many of them are not genuine asylum seekers. If they were to apply for asylum in the first EU country they enter, after going through the formalities they would have the freedom to settle anywhere in the EU. No camping in the jungle in Calais, no fighting to get on trains in Budapest. Of course, if they were not genuine refugees and they thought this fact may be discovered…..
I don’t think making the cut in the end of the year round up is to significant, sp. Such summaries will probably also include a slot on the latest part of his anatomy that David Beckham has had tattooed and a piece on the winner of the latest amateur cake baking contest on the telly. Nobody takes too much notice of them. Of course the government will almost certainly react to this latest outpouring of false outrage and imagined grief by allowing a “small number” (probably about 100,000) migrants to settle here “on humanitarian grounds”. The bigger outrage of course is such action will only encourage more people to risk their lives and those of young children by taking to the sea in rubber boats fleeing from perfect safety simply on the basis that they fancy a “warmer welcome and better prospects” than they have where they currently are.
We don't know the particular situation of the parents of the young boy. All we know is they applied for asylum in Canada, were turned down and then attempted the illegal route; Lets not forget - Syria is land linked to Turkey.
There is a current civil war in Syria, we're all aware of that, but to perceive that each and every refugee out of Syria is at risk from that is naïve.
Eitherway, the photograph is a textbook example of the Hegellian Dialectic, designed to create a reaction to force a solution.
I don't understand the correlation between numbers of migrants taken into the EU and this little boys death; its not related.
There is a current civil war in Syria, we're all aware of that, but to perceive that each and every refugee out of Syria is at risk from that is naïve.
Eitherway, the photograph is a textbook example of the Hegellian Dialectic, designed to create a reaction to force a solution.
I don't understand the correlation between numbers of migrants taken into the EU and this little boys death; its not related.
//Hegelian dialectic, usually presented in a threefold manner, was stated by Heinrich Moritz Chalybäus as comprising three dialectical stages of development: a thesis, giving rise to its reaction, an antithesis, which contradicts or negates the thesis, and the tension between the two being resolved by means of a synthesis//
Very succinct snafu03. The easiest human condition to manipulate is emotion.
Very succinct snafu03. The easiest human condition to manipulate is emotion.
Ummmm, on the daily sobfest that is R4 this morning, the woman they interviewed with her sad story, who wants to bring her brothers/sisters/aunties/uncles, and who incidentally demanded her right to go anywhere she felt like in Europe, was very much on the IS side of the fence. (as, you'll find, the majority of these people are, going by all the interviews I've heard.)
The little boy's mother and 5 year old brother also drowned. The father is taking their bodies back to Syria for burial.
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