In or Out?

[AB Editor]

 

This poll is closed.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

• Leave the European Union - 124 votes
• 75%
• Remain a member of the European Union - 42 votes
• 25%

See final stats

Stats until: 11:35 Thu 21st Nov 2024 (Refreshed every 5 minutes)

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[Togo]

It always strikes me that the ones who don't believe in a Great Britain are somewhat akin to the professed atheists, who find (I have used this analogy before) that not believing isn't enough. They need to actively hate God.

[steg]

In

[-Talbot-]

Re your post @ 12:59 Jim.

So unless the remaining EU members deliberately target the British ... Nothing will change.
Nothing will change as far as travelling by car once you're through the tunnel it is plain sailing as usual.

I could get as daft as Canary and say the post about EU travel was scaremongering but I won't.

[naomi24]

Togo, atheists may hate what religion does, but they don’t believe there is a God so they can’t possibly hate ‘him’. Just thought I'd make that clear. Back to the subject.

[-Talbot-]

Which way will I vote? I'm tending towards "Leave", but the more unpleasant and hysterical the propaganda from the leave camp gets the more I'm likely to change to "Stay".


What a reasonable way to reach your decision, sunny.

[jim360]

I don't understand how pointing out that tearing ourselves from a massive institution of which we have been a member for over 40 years, resulting in a great deal of situations where current policies or practices are greatly entangled with that institution, is likely to have some negative consequences, particularly in the short term, is "scaremongering". Unless people seriously believe that either absolutely nothing would change (in which case the case for leaving the EU seems to collapse pretty rapidly), or absolutely everything would dramatically improve with no negative consequences whatsoever (clearly nonsense) then this follows.

The main thing is the philosophical issue: any negative consequences of leaving the EU shouldn't matter that much if you think it is in principle the right thing to do to leave. The rest is detail.

[Togo]

//(I have used this analogy before)//

The clue was in brackets Naomi. Analogy.

[naomi24]

Togo, I know, but it doesn't work. Just saying.

[Svejk]

I'm with Jim. People over 65 shouldn't be given a vote, anyway, as it's hardly going to impact on their lives. (much)

[murraymints]

sve !!! guess you advocate The Bladerunner then ???

[Svejk]

^I was kidding.

[viv41]

You are joking svejk ??

[viv41]

Good ......

[naomi24]

Jim, It is not as black and white as you imply. If we leave some things will change and some will not. I haven’t had time to read your answers to my questions yet, but I will.

[naomi24]

Svejk, at least you didn't say it's not going to impact on their lives for long - or is that what you meant? ;o)

[jim360]

Thanks, Naomi -- a (very) succinct summary is that I'm a lot more shaky about my "in" than I was, say, a couple of years ago. But for me it remains enough that I think the philosophy behind the EU is worth persevering with. If people don't agree with that, then I don't think details are going to be very persuasive somehow. And I do accept that it's not black-and-white, but some of those people in favour of leaving appear to think so (ie that any talk of negative consequences is just scaremongering, from which i follows that they don't believe there will be any such consequences... or at least that they don't matter, but then it's a judgement call.)

[naomi24]

Jim, //in a world that's getting increasingly more connected, it makes more sense to embrace that rather than to resist it.//

Leaving the EU doesn’t equate to resisting a more connected world. If anything, it opens further avenues.

//the "time we took control of our own affairs" argument is somewhat bogus. From any individual's democratic perspective the net effect of leaving the EU would be to increase the level of your voice from about 1 in 500 million adults (ie practically insignificant) to about 1 in 50 million (ie still practically insignificant).//

This isn’t about individual voices.

//if you don't buy the above philosophy then the current practical benefits of the EU are not enough to justify remaining a member.//

I don’t, and they are not.

//many of my scientific colleagues are part of collaborations that depend in whole or in part on EU funding and EU projects (or, indeed, are EU citizens). At least in the short term, these would certainly be heavily disrupted on leaving the EU.//

No doubt if the projects are worthwhile, funding will be found from the millions we pay to the EU annually.

//The freedom of movement is a benefit, too//

I don’t believe law abiding British citizens have ever been prevented from travelling in Europe, and I don’t expect that to change.

None of your arguments convince me. Most of them seem to revolve around your personal world but this is about far more than that. It’s about the future of this country and of all of its people.

To address your latest post, I think the charge of ‘scaremongering’ is just that. If we leave the EU we will survive - and we will thrive.

[bazwillrun]

"To address your latest post, I think the charge of ‘scaremongering’ is just that. If we leave the EU we will survive - and we will thrive. "

hear hear...as we have always done and will continue to do as long as we get out of their clutches

[jim360]

Naomi: "None of your arguments convince me."

I can't say I'm too surprised. Thanks for replying, all the same.

[naomi24]

You're welcome. Sorry it was a long time coming - busy day.