Ok I Know I'm Going To Called Names For This But......

[ToraToraTora]

http://news.sky.com/story/1675325/springsteen-axes-gig-over-transgender-toilets
Surely we need to resolve the whole toilet/changing room issue don't we?

[anotheoldgit]

Would a transgender man be allowed in the women's public bath shower room?

[woofgang]

Prudie, cubicles that allow privacy....that way anybody can use any loo.

[naomi24]

Prudie, If it’s as unimportant to women as Jim seems to think it should be, perhaps rather than cause anyone to feel uncomfortable he might consider wearing a pair of jeans on his night out and using the men’s toilet. He can’t possibly be offended by the sight of ‘a winkie’, as Douglas puts it. He’s used men’s toilets all his life.

AOG, you’re being awkward.

[jim360]

It's something that, perhaps, will require more thought from both sides. But since it's impractical for all public places to provide yet more toilets (you would presumably need at least two extra sets, for transmen and transwomen) -- and since by now, transpeople are a fact of public life, and can't be held in private any longer -- it will have to be resolved one way or another. Perhaps the best solution in the long term to do away with the idea of communal toilets altogether.

The problem is that while some women are, not unreasonably, uncomfortable with the thought of "men in dresses" leering at them in the loo, transpeople who are obliged to go to the loo opposite to the gender they identify will also risk being uncomfortable because of it. Not to mention the inverse problem -- how would women feel if you saw this person wandering around your toilets?

https://31.media.tumblr.com/79b1a87560961d115178eb05eacb8bfd/tumblr_inline_nl4aipQk0n1s0q1be.png

[woofgang]

AOG do they still exist? I last used one around 40 years ago when we moved into a flat in Bristol during the switchover to natural gas. The flat had been unoccupied when the routine changes were made so the flat’s gas was disconnected and we found when we moved in that we had no hot water or cooking facilities. We went to the public baths at Jacob’s Wells in the interim and the baths and showers were all in individual private cubicles. It was a very old building so divided into men’s and ladies’ facilities but once inside, as I said, all the cubicles were quite private.

[jim360]

Naomi, I've never said it was unimportant, or even (see my previous post) unreasonable. I'm just saying that your discomfort isn't my primary concern, any more than mine is yours.

Also, I think it's going a bit far to suggest that transpeople should essentially never wear the clothes they want to in order to avoid this problem emerging.

[woofgang]

am I being naive? Surely in a ladies loo there shouldn’t be anything to leer at? I mean does anyone do anything more than wash their hands and perhaps adjust hair and makeup in the public area?

[Bathsheba]

I love The Boss even more after this :)

Baths
x x x

[jim360]

And, again to illustrate the inverse problem, here's "a man" going to the gents':

http://cdn1.theweek.co.uk/sites/theweek/files/styles/theweek_insert_main_image/public/8/88//150310-bathrooms.jpg?itok=l4HnCzdu

[RATTER15]

Surely its Ok to to use the the toilet that best suits the attire he is dressed in, if dressed as male use the male toilet if dressed as female then use the female toilet.

[Islay]

I don't see what the issue is - communal toilets are available in the usa and Europe so as such this is already sorted!

[RATTER15]

Islay, actually when I lived near Barnstaple in Devon, they had not long built new communal toilets there, both sexes used them with no issues at all as far as I was aware.

[RATTER15]

http://www.northdevonjournal.co.uk/New-toilets-Barnstaple-town-centre-cost-build/story-12161072-detail/story.html

[anotheoldgit]

RATTER15

Not even the left up seat issue?

[naomi24]

Jim, //I'm just saying that your discomfort isn't my primary concern//

Clearly!

Ratter, communal toilets are a different thing, and perhaps that is the answer. However, Jim is asking that specific men – those who choose to dress as women – and there’s no way of telling, on sight, whether a man is genuinely going through the transgender process or is simply a transvestite who may or may not be a creep – be allowed special concessions - and that, I think, is selfish and wrong.

[RATTER15]

Its like someone else pointed out, you are never going to see anything in a womans toilet apart from women playing with make-up or washing their hands, I really dont think even the creepy guys are interested that much.

[naomi24]

Ratter, //you are never going to see anything in a womans toilet apart from women playing with make-up or washing their hands,//

Really? Don't believe everything you read. Whoever said that needs to think again.

[jim360]

I would argue it's selfish and wrong the other way, Naomi -- especially as you seem determined to characterise me as "possibly a creep", as opposed to almost certainly not one. What bothers me as well is how selfish you seem to think I am, despite the fact that it's you who seems determined to dictate how I dress (and where I pee), according to your discomfort. Which is fairly presumptuous, to say the least, and for that matter relies on you noticing in the first place. I mean, do you usually scrutinise all the people who enter public toilets to ensure that they are who they appear to be? Or do you not pay any attention, because after all, it's none of your business?

And, like I asked earlier, the knock-on effect is that people who are clearly, outwardly, men, would have to share your bathroom instead. Is that really preferable to people who are outwardly women?

But anyway, never mind. The law in the UK is, for now, on my side. So I guess you'll just have to get used to it.

[jackthehat]

I would venture that *any* transexual wo/man will feel far more vulnerable when visiting the toilet than those who see it as their 'natural habitat'.

I'm sure there are far less convoluted ways for 'creeps' to get their jollies.

[naomi24]

Jim, //especially as you seem determined to characterise me as "possibly a creep//

Hold up! You’re out of order! I didn’t say that – or imply it. Don’t put words into my mouth. I’m not responsible for your insecurities.

////it's you who seems determined to dictate how I dress//

I didn’t say that either.

//after all, it's none of your business?//

If there’s someone in ladies toilets who shouldn’t be there, like it or not, it is my business.

//And, like I asked earlier, the knock-on effect is that people who are clearly, outwardly, men, would have to share your bathroom instead. Is that really preferable to people who are outwardly women?//

Yes it is preferable. I don’t have a problem with communal toilets. At least with those people who might be tempted to lurk around ladies toilets are aware that a man who looks and behaves like a man can walk in on them at any time. A bit of a deterrent, I’d say.