Why Did The Turks Side With Germany...
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Is The Multiculturalism Experiment Working?
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Well unfortunately it doesn't appear to be here.
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Can we define what we mean by 'multicultural'?
Is it a race thing or genuinely a culture thing?
Should we include food, music, clothing and social attitudes?
Because if those who decry multiculturalism really mean culture, rather than race - then I wonder whether they have an issue with the American jeans they wear, or with the French style street cafes they eat at.
Or the American coffee houses they buy their skinny lattes from?
Or the European style late night bars they drink in. Or the German style Christmas markets they buy late gifts for friends at?
Or the Spanish style tapas menus their local pub has adopted?
Or the Greek kebabs they eat after a night out on the town?
Or the Japanese sushi they wolf down at lunch?
Or the American burgers and fried chicken they feed their kids as a treat after shopping?
Perhaps the UK has multiculturalism ingrained in so many different ways, that just looking at friction points...is missing the point?
Is it a race thing or genuinely a culture thing?
Should we include food, music, clothing and social attitudes?
Because if those who decry multiculturalism really mean culture, rather than race - then I wonder whether they have an issue with the American jeans they wear, or with the French style street cafes they eat at.
Or the American coffee houses they buy their skinny lattes from?
Or the European style late night bars they drink in. Or the German style Christmas markets they buy late gifts for friends at?
Or the Spanish style tapas menus their local pub has adopted?
Or the Greek kebabs they eat after a night out on the town?
Or the Japanese sushi they wolf down at lunch?
Or the American burgers and fried chicken they feed their kids as a treat after shopping?
Perhaps the UK has multiculturalism ingrained in so many different ways, that just looking at friction points...is missing the point?
SP, i would venture that what you've described as "multiculturalism" is actually more simply expressed as "people getting on with each other". if the uk were truly multicultural (which it isn't), then all aspects of every culture would be embraced and given equal weight by society, including those bits some find distasteful, or are actually illegal in the uk, rather than just the fluffy-bunny bits that people see when they talk of multiculturalism.
One of the problems is that 'multiculturalism' is a buzz word, and politicians love them because it makes them seen in touch and trendy.
So to decide if the 'experiment' is working, you need to examine if it actually is an experiment, and what sort of results - if any, you can expect, because experiments produce results - or should do.
As I see it, if you think that 'multiculturalism' means that everyone is going to wholeheartedly embrace one hundred per cent of the culture of their adopted country, then you are doomed to find failure, because that flies in the face of human nature.
If you are hoping that each culture is going to maintain the majority of its own customs, while accepting other lifestyles and endeavouring to fit in where to do so avoids friction, then you have more of a potential for success, but again, it depends on human nature which by definition is fluid, and will not bend to fixed concepts and ideals designed as vote-winners.
I think the fault likes in the fatuity of the phrase, and the attempt by politicians to try and force cultural changes on a society which would not accept them anywhere in the world - and the result is that - as defined, the 'Multicultural Experiment' was always doomed to fail.
If you look at it more accurately, as bodies of people learning to accommodate each other and rub along well for most of the time (no snappy media buzz word there Minister!) - then that is what we have got, and have always had since the dawn of history.
So to decide if the 'experiment' is working, you need to examine if it actually is an experiment, and what sort of results - if any, you can expect, because experiments produce results - or should do.
As I see it, if you think that 'multiculturalism' means that everyone is going to wholeheartedly embrace one hundred per cent of the culture of their adopted country, then you are doomed to find failure, because that flies in the face of human nature.
If you are hoping that each culture is going to maintain the majority of its own customs, while accepting other lifestyles and endeavouring to fit in where to do so avoids friction, then you have more of a potential for success, but again, it depends on human nature which by definition is fluid, and will not bend to fixed concepts and ideals designed as vote-winners.
I think the fault likes in the fatuity of the phrase, and the attempt by politicians to try and force cultural changes on a society which would not accept them anywhere in the world - and the result is that - as defined, the 'Multicultural Experiment' was always doomed to fail.
If you look at it more accurately, as bodies of people learning to accommodate each other and rub along well for most of the time (no snappy media buzz word there Minister!) - then that is what we have got, and have always had since the dawn of history.
Togo
Perhaps Mugabe could come and lecture us on how it's done.
He couldn't make it but this chap could ... http://
Perhaps Mugabe could come and lecture us on how it's done.
He couldn't make it but this chap could ... http://
Naomi - //If 'multiculturalism' wasn't creating problems, the question wouldn't have arisen. //
As I have advised in my previous post - I think the problems of 'multiculturalism' have arisen from trendy vote-seeking politicians latching onto a buzz phrase and trying to build social engineering around it, and failing spectacularly.
As I have advised in my previous post - I think the problems of 'multiculturalism' have arisen from trendy vote-seeking politicians latching onto a buzz phrase and trying to build social engineering around it, and failing spectacularly.
naomi24
I think that it's easy to point to say that multiculturalism is a failed experiment by focussing on negatives.
In fact, you could make some outrageous claims about most societal shifts by focussing on negatives.
For example (devil's advocate time):
Equal pay and sex discrimination laws have contributed to the destruction of the British family.
I think that it's easy to point to say that multiculturalism is a failed experiment by focussing on negatives.
In fact, you could make some outrageous claims about most societal shifts by focussing on negatives.
For example (devil's advocate time):
Equal pay and sex discrimination laws have contributed to the destruction of the British family.
naomi24
No...we are talking about focussing on negatives in order to justify criticism of societal changes.
It's easy to focus on negatives, because positives are less easy to define.
AOG has asked whether the multicultural experiment is working based on an argument on a train.
Equally, you could ask whether multiculturalism is working by focussing on the story of a Nigerian nurse tending for a patient in his final hours.
Or a Pakistani teacher who stays behind an extra hour each week to run a maths class for those who are falling behind.
Or any one of the tiny bits of good that my family and millions of other do.
Totally understandable that conflict is more noticeable and draws comment...but I reject the the vast, vast, vast majority can't simply 'get on'.
...because we do.
No...we are talking about focussing on negatives in order to justify criticism of societal changes.
It's easy to focus on negatives, because positives are less easy to define.
AOG has asked whether the multicultural experiment is working based on an argument on a train.
Equally, you could ask whether multiculturalism is working by focussing on the story of a Nigerian nurse tending for a patient in his final hours.
Or a Pakistani teacher who stays behind an extra hour each week to run a maths class for those who are falling behind.
Or any one of the tiny bits of good that my family and millions of other do.
Totally understandable that conflict is more noticeable and draws comment...but I reject the the vast, vast, vast majority can't simply 'get on'.
...because we do.
sp1814
/// Or the Spanish style tapas menus their local pub has adopted?
Or the Greek kebabs they eat after a night out on the town?
Or the Japanese sushi they wolf down at lunch? ///
We are tolerant enough to cater for the tastes of all our visitors, so what's wrong in trying some things out ourselves?
/// Or the Spanish style tapas menus their local pub has adopted?
Or the Greek kebabs they eat after a night out on the town?
Or the Japanese sushi they wolf down at lunch? ///
We are tolerant enough to cater for the tastes of all our visitors, so what's wrong in trying some things out ourselves?
It really doesn't answer the question, though, Naomi. Are we really saying the world was better off prior to any form of cultural interactions whatsoever? Which, incidentally, has never happened. Or, are we saying that a segregated society is a stronger one? Really?
"Multiculturalism", whatever that means, has undoubtedly brought with it certain problems, but I think it's very difficult to say that those problems would have gone away otherwise, or that they will be solved by stopping the experiment. But was the "experiment" even avoidable in the first place? How does one stop it?
"Multiculturalism", whatever that means, has undoubtedly brought with it certain problems, but I think it's very difficult to say that those problems would have gone away otherwise, or that they will be solved by stopping the experiment. But was the "experiment" even avoidable in the first place? How does one stop it?
andy-hughes
/// If you look at it more accurately, as bodies of people learning to accommodate each other and rub along well for most of the time (no snappy media buzz word there Minister!) - then that is what we have got, and have always had since the dawn of history. ///
I don't know which history books you have been reading, but different 'tribes' have not got on together since the dawn of history.
The Romans and Ancient Brits, The Normans and the Anglo-Saxons, The African Tribes and the North American Indian Tribes to name just a few.
One could just as easily reverse the question. There was war and rebellion but the general picture of Roman Britain is that after a while a relatively peaceful coexistence that lasted three centuries or so was established, and only ended because of problems elsewhere.
The Anglo-Saxons and Normans started off badly, too, but... well, it didn't turn out too badly at least at a local level. Higher politics and divisions between rival power factions may have lasted for centuries but that was little to do with Saxon v. Norman, a distinction that soon stopped mattering. Ditto Saxon v. Viking, that again throws up nastiness and horror at the start but settles down. Britain prior to, say, the 1900s was a product of the mixing between these different cultures. Britain in another 50-odd years' time, perhaps more, would likely see the cultures that mixed with us due to Commonwealth immigration also largely well-integrated (and with notably less bloodshed than the earlier examples, if it comes to that).
So yes, history does show that multiculturalism can work. It doesn't always. And these things never work perfectly, because some people are just determined to screw things up as much as possible.
The Anglo-Saxons and Normans started off badly, too, but... well, it didn't turn out too badly at least at a local level. Higher politics and divisions between rival power factions may have lasted for centuries but that was little to do with Saxon v. Norman, a distinction that soon stopped mattering. Ditto Saxon v. Viking, that again throws up nastiness and horror at the start but settles down. Britain prior to, say, the 1900s was a product of the mixing between these different cultures. Britain in another 50-odd years' time, perhaps more, would likely see the cultures that mixed with us due to Commonwealth immigration also largely well-integrated (and with notably less bloodshed than the earlier examples, if it comes to that).
So yes, history does show that multiculturalism can work. It doesn't always. And these things never work perfectly, because some people are just determined to screw things up as much as possible.
AOG
I don't understand your question:
"We are tolerant enough to cater for the tastes of all our visitors, so what's wrong with trying things out ourselves"
Nothing at all. And that's my point...Britain has actively embraced the cultures of others. Look at how American we are!
Many Britons eat fast food, in our blue jeans whilst listening to American music on our American MP3 players.
I don't understand your question:
"We are tolerant enough to cater for the tastes of all our visitors, so what's wrong with trying things out ourselves"
Nothing at all. And that's my point...Britain has actively embraced the cultures of others. Look at how American we are!
Many Britons eat fast food, in our blue jeans whilst listening to American music on our American MP3 players.
AOG
Why look at history books when we can look around us?
The point of multiculturalism is to erode tribalism whilst respecting each other's traditions.
Have you noticed how over the past decade, Halloween has transformed into the American version?
That's simply what happens. We absorb and export culture.
Why look at history books when we can look around us?
The point of multiculturalism is to erode tribalism whilst respecting each other's traditions.
Have you noticed how over the past decade, Halloween has transformed into the American version?
That's simply what happens. We absorb and export culture.
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