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Us Schools Are Put On Notice To Respect Transgender Rights
In the US schools have been warned to not discriminate against transgender kids using the loo of their choice:
http://
How would you feel about this approach being taken in the UK, in UK schools?
http://
How would you feel about this approach being taken in the UK, in UK schools?
Answers
well there are apparently 25+ "genders" so we need to do something or start building more kazis!
11:46 Fri 13th May 2016
AOG -- but they would have to maintain that "lie" over the long term if they wanted to try and abuse the system. I don't buy that it is a real risk, as long as there is some level of sense about it.
As to Naomi's post, I'm sorry but I don't think you really have much of a clue what you are talking about. So to have this opinion that it doesn't or shouldn't matter when you have no experience, and to dictate from such a position, is extraordinarily arrogant of you.
It matters as I have said because it is about whether or not society really wants to accept this. The attitude that people who see themselves as women have to go into the gents' , and vice versa, implies that some in society have not. Fine. Be honest about that, rather than hide behind some veneer of trying to protect yourselves from perverts.
Also, I am willing to consider other people's sensitivities. Only, I thought that would be called "treading on eggshells" to do so. In the end, I figure that I'll go where I please, thank you.
As to Naomi's post, I'm sorry but I don't think you really have much of a clue what you are talking about. So to have this opinion that it doesn't or shouldn't matter when you have no experience, and to dictate from such a position, is extraordinarily arrogant of you.
It matters as I have said because it is about whether or not society really wants to accept this. The attitude that people who see themselves as women have to go into the gents' , and vice versa, implies that some in society have not. Fine. Be honest about that, rather than hide behind some veneer of trying to protect yourselves from perverts.
Also, I am willing to consider other people's sensitivities. Only, I thought that would be called "treading on eggshells" to do so. In the end, I figure that I'll go where I please, thank you.
I have asked this question before so I repeat. If you have visitors to your home do you provide separate toilets for male & female ? The answer is an obvious NO so why at tremendous expense do we expect public bodies to build separate toilet facilities? Surely it is not beyond the range of human expertise to install alarm buttons in each lavatory stall to alert against the ungodly who frequent those places for purposes other than the normal bodily functions.
Jim, //I don't think you really have much of a clue what you are talking about.//
Think what you like but as a woman I certainly know what I’m talking about from a woman’s perspective – at least from the perspective of a woman who prefers to do what she has to do privately – or, if absolutely necessary, among other women. I recall one time in particular walking on a busy street in the USA when a very heavy period began unexpectedly, the blood soaking right through my white shorts and running down my legs. Fortunately, McDonalds was nearby and with the help of a couple of ladies (unknown to me) present in the toilet there, I was able to sort myself out and clean myself up sufficiently to run back to my husband and the car without too much further embarrassment. Had a man (of any description) been present in that toilet at that time I would have been utterly mortified. Bad enough anyone being there in those circumstances!! You may see yourself as a woman, but the simple fact is you’re not and you don't have a clue what it's like to be a woman. You go where you like – whatever reaction you get is your problem – but don’t demand that everyone else pander to your sensitivities.
(For sensitive souls I’m sorry if that was a bit graphic – but there is often more to ladies’ toilets than peeing!).
whiskeryron, I don’t know about your home, but in mine people can rest assured that they have sole occupancy of my toilets for as long as they need it.
Think what you like but as a woman I certainly know what I’m talking about from a woman’s perspective – at least from the perspective of a woman who prefers to do what she has to do privately – or, if absolutely necessary, among other women. I recall one time in particular walking on a busy street in the USA when a very heavy period began unexpectedly, the blood soaking right through my white shorts and running down my legs. Fortunately, McDonalds was nearby and with the help of a couple of ladies (unknown to me) present in the toilet there, I was able to sort myself out and clean myself up sufficiently to run back to my husband and the car without too much further embarrassment. Had a man (of any description) been present in that toilet at that time I would have been utterly mortified. Bad enough anyone being there in those circumstances!! You may see yourself as a woman, but the simple fact is you’re not and you don't have a clue what it's like to be a woman. You go where you like – whatever reaction you get is your problem – but don’t demand that everyone else pander to your sensitivities.
(For sensitive souls I’m sorry if that was a bit graphic – but there is often more to ladies’ toilets than peeing!).
whiskeryron, I don’t know about your home, but in mine people can rest assured that they have sole occupancy of my toilets for as long as they need it.
No need to apologise for being graphic, or for anything else for that matter. I'm not asking you to pander to my sensitivities. I don't see it like that, at least. In the first place they are hardly just "mine", and in the second place I don't think it's pandering.
"You may see yourself as a woman, but the simple fact is you’re not and you don't have a clue what it's like to be a woman."
The first I think it's best to leave open. For clarity's sake in the future let me stick to "I don't really know", for now, and if it ever comes up again then bear that in mind. The second two? I suppose not. But never mind. I would argue that you are referring to what it's like biologically to be a woman, and I can hardly argue with that, but socially it's a different matter. Whether or not the distinction matters is, I suppose, the endless debate on this issue.
The way in which we separate people into different toilets is either biological, or it is social, and we had better make up our mind which. Put another way, who would you rather share a toilet with? "Her"...
http://
or "him"
http://
?
Or, perhaps, neither of them? But if transpeople are to live publically, it has to be one or the other, really.
"You may see yourself as a woman, but the simple fact is you’re not and you don't have a clue what it's like to be a woman."
The first I think it's best to leave open. For clarity's sake in the future let me stick to "I don't really know", for now, and if it ever comes up again then bear that in mind. The second two? I suppose not. But never mind. I would argue that you are referring to what it's like biologically to be a woman, and I can hardly argue with that, but socially it's a different matter. Whether or not the distinction matters is, I suppose, the endless debate on this issue.
The way in which we separate people into different toilets is either biological, or it is social, and we had better make up our mind which. Put another way, who would you rather share a toilet with? "Her"...
http://
or "him"
http://
?
Or, perhaps, neither of them? But if transpeople are to live publically, it has to be one or the other, really.
// I suspect that pretty much everything people on AB would want to say about this has been already, eg in the two threads below.// jim
oh god you can say that again !
clones of threads day after day with the same people contributing the same things.
plus_ça_change,_plus_c'est_la_même_chose An epigram by Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr
oh god you can say that again !
clones of threads day after day with the same people contributing the same things.
plus_ça_change,_plus_c'est_la_même_chose An epigram by Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr
No "hmm..." about it. This might matter to me personally, but it's hardly something that's exclusive to me. As far as I'm aware, there's no-one on AB with any more personal experience of it than me. Make of that what you will.
Perhaps, if you like, you could compare my position at least to that guy in "Life of Brian", who wanted to campaign for the right to have babies...
That solution is possible but again amounts to saying something along the lines of "I'm sorry, but you aren't a lady. Or a gent, for that matter." Is it little wonder that this matters? What toilets transpeople can use is not just about practicalities, but about societal acceptance.
Perhaps, if you like, you could compare my position at least to that guy in "Life of Brian", who wanted to campaign for the right to have babies...
That solution is possible but again amounts to saying something along the lines of "I'm sorry, but you aren't a lady. Or a gent, for that matter." Is it little wonder that this matters? What toilets transpeople can use is not just about practicalities, but about societal acceptance.
Jim, I haven’t suggested that it’s exclusive to you. I know it isn’t. What you’re saying is that transgender men want to be accepted as women, but they’re not women and all the pretence in the world won’t make them women.
//Perhaps, if you like, you could compare my position at least to //that guy in "Life of Brian", who wanted to campaign for the right to have babies...//
I think I just did. To quote you, "I'm sorry, but you aren't a lady”.
Although I think society in general accepts people for what and for who they are, logically there will always be limits to its level of acknowledgement. You may portray yourself as female but, although I understand it's difficult, I really can’t understand why you expect the rest of the world to 'genuinely' regard you as female when it knows you’re not.
//Perhaps, if you like, you could compare my position at least to //that guy in "Life of Brian", who wanted to campaign for the right to have babies...//
I think I just did. To quote you, "I'm sorry, but you aren't a lady”.
Although I think society in general accepts people for what and for who they are, logically there will always be limits to its level of acknowledgement. You may portray yourself as female but, although I understand it's difficult, I really can’t understand why you expect the rest of the world to 'genuinely' regard you as female when it knows you’re not.
-- answer removed --
In reality all that could be done is to have the usual male and female wash/toilet facilities plus one or two 'unisex' cubicles or make the entire set up 'unisex' with individual cubicles each with washing / changing/ toilet facilities.
The 2nd option may be the only workable one, as any child choosing to use a 'unisex' cubicle is likely to be the target of verbal abuse or bullying.
The 2nd option may be the only workable one, as any child choosing to use a 'unisex' cubicle is likely to be the target of verbal abuse or bullying.
Jackthehat, //Hallo......has anyone seen my Groundhog? //
Jim might have.
Fender, //because a child shows traits that might be construed as gay does not mean he or she is, passing phases that's all //
I can relate to that. I've said this before but I'll say it again. Aged about eight I was desperate to be a boy. Reading the Famous Five did it. Ann was such a wuss! I'm very pleased I'm not a boy, but had people who promote this in a child's world had any input or influence I wonder what confusion they may have created in my young mind.
Jim might have.
Fender, //because a child shows traits that might be construed as gay does not mean he or she is, passing phases that's all //
I can relate to that. I've said this before but I'll say it again. Aged about eight I was desperate to be a boy. Reading the Famous Five did it. Ann was such a wuss! I'm very pleased I'm not a boy, but had people who promote this in a child's world had any input or influence I wonder what confusion they may have created in my young mind.
Without wanting to drag the argument out any further Naomi, when it's clear we are never going to agree, I want to try and stress that it seems to me that you are defining "female" purely as a biological thing. The whole crux of the transgender movement is that gender is about the mind, far more than it is about the body. In that sense, if the world "knows I'm not" -- well, depends on what it knows I am not. Biologically, you'd be quite correct. But if gender is about more than that, then all of this "the world knows you're not" is borne of a view that doesn't take this into account.
I think that's a shame, because it is a very restricted definition indeed, and one that I suspect isn't going to stand the test of time.
I think that's a shame, because it is a very restricted definition indeed, and one that I suspect isn't going to stand the test of time.
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