Muhammad Ali Has Died

[campbellking]

RIP.

[bob561941]

He was loved by Londoners,and admired by them for refusing to fight in Vietnam
a war that U.S.A. lost to a peasant army. I will never forget the scenes on T.V.
of the American Marines on the roof of the Saigon embassy scrambling to flee
the country.

[Ellipsis]

RIP
Muhammad Ali
Floated like a butterfly
Stang like a bee.

[Khandro]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/muhammad-ali-nation-of-islam-michael-parkinson-interview-who-were-elijah-muhammad-a7066301.html

[anotheoldgit]

/// In 1964, Ali failed the U.S. Armed Forces qualifying test because his writing and spelling skills were sub-standard. With the escalation of the Vietnam War, the test standards were lowered in November 1965 and Ali was reclassified as 1-A in February 1966, which meant he was now eligible for the draft and induction into the U.S. Army. When notified of this status, he declared that he would refuse to serve in the U.S. Army and publicly considered himself a conscientious objector. Ali stated that "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers." Ali also famously said in 1966: "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong ... They never called me ***." ///

[andy-hughes]

I think those of us of an age to remember the impact of Muhammad Ali will have a better grasp of context.

Although his route to fame was as a boxer, his impact on American culture was far more important, with his ground-breaking attitude to conscription - how many seriously famous black men made a religious stand and refused to be drafted before Ali, as just one example.

He broke the stereo-typical mode of black athletes as being rather dopey, and 'knowing their place' - Ali absolutely did know his place, it was right at the top of popular culture and cutting-edge social change, and that is the reason for the mass of eulogies and memories that are coming out now.

Hopefully the message that Ali put forward - that Afro-Americans deserve dignity and respect - will carry on, and that will be his legacy.

[Togo]

R.I.P. Ali. Greatest heavyweight boxer ever. Maybe not as clever as he hoped.

"Every man loves a son who looks like himself. So how far should we integrate"?

Muhammad Ali to Michael Parkinson.

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

/// Although his route to fame was as a boxer, his impact on American culture was far more important, with his ground-breaking attitude to conscription - how many seriously famous black men made a religious stand and refused to be drafted before Ali, as just one example. ///

According to my draft (excuse the pun) it wasn't because he was black that he refused to fight for his country, but because he was a Muslim.

There were many black guys who did not dodge the draft and went on to fight for their country with valour during WW2, and thank goodness for that.

[Ellipsis]

Those who denigrate him in death tell us more about themselves than about Ali.

His views on Islam and race have been well known for many years. The fact remains that he was an outstanding human being, which is why he got the enormous coverage he did in the papers yesterday. I can't imagine any other sportsman ever getting that again, particular a non-British one ...

[jennyjoan]

for a black man - a VERY VERY PRETTY GOOD LOOKING MAN - THE BEST GOOD LOOKER IN MY TIMES - God I loved him RIP

[Islay]

//There were many black guys who did not dodge the draft and went on to fight for their country with valour during WW2, and thank goodness for that. //

Yes but were treated with disgust because of their colour. By the time the Vietnam War came round some 20 odd years later people had woken up to pointlessness of SOME wars and Vietnam was one of them!

[andy-hughes]

AOG - //andy-hughes

/// Although his route to fame was as a boxer, his impact on American culture was far more important, with his ground-breaking attitude to conscription - how many seriously famous black men made a religious stand and refused to be drafted before Ali, as just one example. ///

According to my draft (excuse the pun) it wasn't because he was black that he refused to fight for his country, but because he was a Muslim. //

I think your point does not contradict mine - I did state that his objection to the draft was because of his faith, not his ethnicity.

[andy-hughes]

AOG - //There were many black guys who did not dodge the draft and went on to fight for their country with valour during WW2, and thank goodness for that. //

I am not sure that the term 'dodge' is appropriate here - Ali made a very high-profile public stand about his faith and its rules making his fighting not an option for him - I don't think he 'dodged' the draft so much as faced it down full on.

The issue of the rightness of his decision is a separate issue, but I think it is important that he is not bracketed with individuals who used nefarious means to avoid being drafted.

[Khandro]

andy; //...his faith and its rules making his fighting not an option for him//

Since when has being a Muslim prevented anyone from fighting? 400,000 fought alongside the British in WW1 alone

[andy-hughes]

Khandro - //andy; //...his faith and its rules making his fighting not an option for him//

Since when has being a Muslim prevented anyone from fighting? 400,000 fought alongside the British in WW1 alone //

I merely quote Mr Ali's reasons for electing not to be drafted, I cannot confirm the veracity of his reasoning.

[Khandro]

a-h; So really, he was 'dodging' the draft under false pretenses?
If you visit the war graves in France, lots have crescents carved on them.

[andy-hughes]

Khandro - //a-h; So really, he was 'dodging' the draft under false pretenses? //

Only Mr Ali can answer that one.

I don't think it was an absence of courage that informed his decision, whatever else may have been in play at the time.

[Ellipsis]

What does Islam say about fighting wars you don't believe in, as opposed to fighting wars you do believe in?

[andy-hughes]

Ellipsis - //What does Islam say about fighting wars you don't believe in, as opposed to fighting wars you do believe in? //

I cannot speak from direct experience, but the logic that applies to all religions no doubt swings into action - if we believe it's a just war, then it is, and off you go, and if not, then don't.

[Peter Pedant]

// He was loved by Londoners,and admired by them for refusing to fight in Vietnam , a war that U.S.A. lost to a peasant army.

I will never forget the scenes on T.V. of the American Marines on the roof of the Saigon embassy scrambling to flee the country.//

bullocks - Henry 'our 'enery' was more revered for knocking him down ( and then losing ) - and not particularly revered by Brit vietnam protesters - I know I was one and was there at the American Embassy ( second one )

had insight into what had caused his Parkinsons
repeated head trauma ( = being hit)

Dont put your kids inthe ring ma - was a catch phrase
( but in those days there was only one way out of the ghetto )

[Peter Pedant]

// - if we believe it's a just war, then it is, and off you go, and if not, then don't.// AH

yeah but you speak from the canon of Thomas Aquinas - arch christian etc
I think the book is called 'Just war'. theologian and philosopher extraordinaire
" doctor exemplairius " ? oh something like that

as for muslim doctrine on the just and unjust war -I think a muslim is gonna have to tell us.