Owen Smith And Article 50....

[mushroom25]

so, what's he saying here?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167253

"you voted out. are you sure? are you really sure? are you really really really sure?"

i wonder what the "right" answer is this time?

[andy-hughes]

Gromit - //Seeing as large parts of the Labour Constituency voted for Brexit, I am not sure that saying you will fight not to invoke Article 50 is what his voters want to hear. //

According to Mr Smith on Radio Four today, seventy-five per cent of Labour voters voted to remain in the EU, so obviously he feels he has a mandate to contest the result.

I still cannot fathom how he can formulate an argument that the referendum should be re-run.

[Old_Geezer]

"At the time, the British people voted for economic and trading links, because that was what was offered. History shows that the EU has morphed into an empire-building monster with no accountability, but no-one knew that at the time, otherwise the result would have been different."

I knew folk who claimed it at the time, and they were dismissed as scaremongering. Just about everyone in the EEC save the British people seems to have known it, if you speak to others in foreign lands that were EEC members at the time. I think it was that error, that partially allowed us to to make a better job at detecting scaremongering this time around, and come to the right decision.

[jim360]

"I still cannot fathom how [Owen Smith] can formulate an argument that the referendum should be re-run."

That's because there isn't one.

[mushroom25]

//According to Mr Smith on Radio Four today, seventy-five per cent of Labour voters voted to remain in the EU//

how could he possibly know that - were voters in labour held constituencies required to declare their political affiliation on the ballot paper?

[andy-hughes]

Old_Geezer - //I knew folk who claimed it at the time, and they were dismissed as scaremongering. Just about everyone in the EEC save the British people seems to have known it, if you speak to others in foreign lands that were EEC members at the time. //

But surely, scaremongering would be exactly what it was - just the same as the campaigns of fear by both sides this time have been scaremongering. Because no-one can see into the future. Just because a doom-laden prophesy turns out to have been correct, that doesn't take away the fact that it was scaremongering at the time.

Trying to bolster your argument by prophesying doom and gloom if you lose your argument is standard political practice.

T'was ever thus.

[Old_Geezer]

Surely he would argue it isn't a re-run. The first was to say we wanted out. The second would be to say the terms agreed going forward are unacceptable and one must renegotiate before actually leaving. I'm unsure if a renegotiation then leads to a further referendum and so on ad infinitum.

[andy-hughes]

mushroom25 - ////According to Mr Smith on Radio Four today, seventy-five per cent of Labour voters voted to remain in the EU//

how could he possibly know that - were voters in labour held constituencies required to declare their political affiliation on the ballot paper? //

He can't know that - but it didn't prevent him saying it live on national radio!

[Old_Geezer]

Clearly not. It's indicative that it turns out to be true. But it's more compelling that other countries say that was always the aim, and they don't understand why the British, as a whole, claim they didn't know.

[Gromit]

// According to Mr Smith on Radio Four today, seventy-five per cent of Labour voters voted to remain in the EU //

I don't know if that is true or made up. What I do know is the referendum was decided when large swathes of the North and Wales (Labour Territory) voted to Leave.

[ToraToraTora]

well after the vote Jezza was getting beaten up for not being remainiac enough and causing millions of Labour voters to vote out, now he's saying most of them voted in. Can't have it both ways sunshine!

[jim360]

Yes you can have it both ways. 25% of Labour's vote is still "millions" (for the time being, at least).

It's obviously not exactly known how many Labour voters went one way or another, but it is possible to perform surveys before and after the referendum. Consistently, voting intention showed a clear majority of Labour voters in favour of remaining in the EU (and the other way around for the Tories). How many of them carried out that vote is a different matter, but the indications are clear.

[Old_Geezer]

Just shows how many millions of supporters the Labour party has.

[ToraToraTora]

well Labour had 9.3 million votes in 2015, dwarfed by the votes for either side in the referendum. Playing with fire springs to mind.

[jim360]

Labour is in plenty of trouble already, but, again, General Election arithmetic may end up being on the side of any leader who pitches his party in favour of remaining in the EU. In theory, that could mean receiving a 15+ million vote mandate, and as long as the Leavers are divided (between, say, the Tories and Ukip) then that would lead to a huge Parliamentary majority, elected on the principle of staying in the EU. What happens then? And how would anyone who wanted to leave respond to such a democratically decisive result against the referendum?

[naomi24]

Jim, //wasn't this part of the argument for holding this referendum in the first place? That the people in the 1975 referendum didn't know that they were, ultimately, voting for a political union rather than an economic one? I've seen this argued several times on AB and elsewhere.//

That’s inaccurate and misleading. The argument wasn’t that people didn’t know what they were voting for in 1975 – they knew exactly what they were voting for – to remain in the Common Market. However, subsequent to that vote and over a period of time the goalposts moved and moved again and again and, without further consultation, the British public got something it hadn’t bargained for - the European Union. That cannot be compared to the Brexit referendum. There's an important difference between the two.

[jim360]

Is that really true, though, Naomi? The goalposts were not really moved all that much, certainly not with respect to the stated aims of the EU/ EEC/ Common Market, that had "political union" down from the very start. No-one who voted in 1975 should be surprised that the union they had joined therefore continued to move in that direction over the following years.

That's not to say that the 1975 result should be eternally binding. But then this year's referendum oughtn't be either. For now, yes. In another thirty-odd years, maybe the UK would like to revisit the question again after all.

[naomi24]

Jim, I don’t know if the stated aims of the Common Market included ‘political union’, but I don’t believe anyone ever envisaged political union as it became. The people who voted Brexit have seen what it turned into – and they don’t want it. It’s as simple as that.

[bazwillrun]

"Just move to an EU country, you'll be happy there. "

until that country leaves...and dont worry sooner or later they all will as the whole empire crashes and burns...as they always do eventually

[bazwillrun]

"but I don’t believe anyone ever envisaged political union as it became."

I remember my father back in 72 saying exactly what it would lead to..and how they will carry on lying as to the final intent of the end game

as he said then its about germany with the traiterous france as its Oberleutnant taking control of europe and The Grocer to form and run an empire, doesnt matter what you call it but the result would be the same..a europe dominated , ruled and dictated, one military , one police force, one tax system blah blah blah etc etc..all done under the guise of harmonisation, integration etc blah blah...a forth reich a new world order has been the political dream of the merkels, junckers, schulz et al for decades

anybody that seriously believe its not the plan is seriously deluded and should seek some sort of therapy and get back to reality.

[bazwillrun]

typo...

and The Grocer as he became known, lied to the british public in full knowledge of what the european plans were..