Owen Smith And Article 50....

[mushroom25]

so, what's he saying here?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167253

"you voted out. are you sure? are you really sure? are you really really really sure?"

i wonder what the "right" answer is this time?

[Paul22118]

I will never vote Labour but from the side-lines I cannot see why Hilary Benn didn't stand, I am sure he is more winnable than Smith. As for another referendum 'in your dreams'. Nearly 2 million voters more - voted out. So out it is and not another vote until you get a result that suits you.

[jim360]

"Jim, I don’t know if the stated aims of the Common Market included ‘political union’..."

Well, they did. (Strictly speaking, the phrase, in the preamble to the Treaty of Rome, was "ever closer union [between the peoples of Europe]", but this demanded political union as both an aim and a necessary consequence. If anyone wasn't aware of this in 1975, then they didn't know what they were voting for after all.

It's all moot now, of course. The referendum then kept Britain in the EU; this one is going to take us out of it, barring some truly exceptional circumstances.

[Old_Geezer]

The referendum then kept Britain in the EEC.

[jim360]

Hmm. I suppose this means that I agree with baz (although I wouldn't quite put it the same way...).

[New Judge]

I haven't read all of this but will simply say what I have said ever since the referendum: the vote was in favour of leaving the EU. It was not in favour of leaving providing whatever conditions the EU sees fit to impose on us post Brexit are acceptable.

Many people voted to leave precisely because they felt the EU held too much sway over the affairs of the UK. The EU had a chance to reform when Mr Cameron went over with the begging bowl. They told us to go forth and multiply and that's exactly what we'll do. There is nothing the EU can do to us when our membership ceases that should worry us. As I keep saying, more nations are outside the EU than in it and most seem to manage perfectly well.

[bazwillrun]

"Hmm. I suppose this means that I agree with baz (although I wouldn't quite put it the same way...). "

thats part of the problem jim...people are arent calling it what it is, they are skirting the issue and using soft talk...in my own life i tell people how it is, i dont mince my words because further down the line people then cant say but you said this and not this etc... call a spade a spade, avoids confusion

how much more proof do people really need of whats really going to happen

https://www.rt.com/news/356881-european-army-czech-pm/

and you can bet your last worthless euro on who the first people that the new army would be used against..yeah its own people in one of the new provinces that want their country and independence back from its new dictators...

[ludwig]

I will believe we are leaving the EU when it happens.

'Brexit means Brexit' means nothing. She may as well have said 'Banana means Banana'.

[ludwig]

I have no idea what happened there ^

[jim360]

Well, to be fair, it was a good point that deserves saying five times.

[EDDIE51]

NJ, I fully agree with your point that 'Many people voted leave because they felt the EU held too much sway over the affairs of the UK'
However I contend that far more people voted 'leave' because they hate immigrants! Your reason is a very good reason to leave, but the xenophobic reason that more people share is NOT good!
When I was in the polling station on 23rd June waiting my turn to vote there were 5 or 6 other people waiting, and they were all loudly proclaiming there desire to vote Leave, ''so we can get rid of the bl***dy Immigrants''

Then next morning there was the incident in my local (Muslim Run ) corner shop where a group of women were telling the shop keeper '' we are getting out of the EU, so all you immigrants will have to go home'
There is also the widely reported surge in 'Race Hate' crime since Brexit all support for my contention.

[youngmafbog]

// the xenophobic //

Jeez man get a life.

And put those sour grapes in the bin and move on.

[whiskeryron]

I was there when we voted to join THE COMMON MARKET. We believed we were entering a new TRADE agreement. I am firmly convinced that after Germany lost the war for the SECOND time they decided to have another go but this time to invade via the back door. The turncoat French wanted in on this & so was born the EU or to give it its proper name the Fourth Reich. Now that we have voted for Brexit let us not lose this glorious opportunity to get away from this sad notion that Europe is the Bees Knees & should be the Eurpopean Empire of the future.

[andy-hughes]

whiskeyron - //I was there when we voted to join THE COMMON MARKET. We believed we were entering a new TRADE agreement. I am firmly convinced that after Germany lost the war for the SECOND time they decided to have another go but this time to invade via the back door. The turncoat French wanted in on this & so was born the EU or to give it its proper name the Fourth Reich. Now that we have voted for Brexit let us not lose this glorious opportunity to get away from this sad notion that Europe is the Bees Knees & should be the Eurpopean Empire of the future. //

I was also around, and I endorse your very important point - that we negotiated and entered a trade agreement, and that federalism and European legal impositions were absolutely not part of the deal.

I also endorse your belief that we should extricate ourselves from the nightmare of federalism a.s.a.p.

[naomi24]

Jim, //(Strictly speaking, the phrase, in the preamble to the Treaty of Rome, was "ever closer union [between the peoples of Europe]"//

The Common Market was about trade, not political union, and you are playing with words. Stop making it up because it suits you to make it up. Stick to the ‘strictly speaking’.

[jim360]

I'm not making anything up. Political Union was always a part of the aim, Common market or not.

Heck, listen to baz saying the same thing if you don't want to take my word for it.

[naomi24]

Jim, you are stretching the truth. 'Even closer union' does not equate to the political nightmare that, over the years, has become the result of that initial agreement.