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Should Prime Minster May Pledge That Eu Citizens Can Stay In Uk After Brexit?
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Why aren't they also demanding the same protection for our Ex-Pats in Europe?
Don't they care about them?
Why aren't they also demanding the same protection for our Ex-Pats in Europe?
Don't they care about them?
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The sooner both sides, and the public remember that there is no procedure here, no precedent, no script, everyone is making it up as they go along, the better.
As soon as you hear someone trying to speak 'with authority', you can discount what they are saying because no-one knows what is going to happen until the negotiations open properly - that is what negotiation is all about.
No-one is going to declare a firm position on anything that they need to use to negotiate with, so all this dancing around major issues is utterly pointless.
For once, the government and the people are in precisely the same position - we don't know, and we are going to have to wait and see what happens.
As soon as you hear someone trying to speak 'with authority', you can discount what they are saying because no-one knows what is going to happen until the negotiations open properly - that is what negotiation is all about.
No-one is going to declare a firm position on anything that they need to use to negotiate with, so all this dancing around major issues is utterly pointless.
For once, the government and the people are in precisely the same position - we don't know, and we are going to have to wait and see what happens.
“The Tory Brexiteers are now saying that they want the European immigrants too stay ?”
First of all, Mikey, there are not that many (Parliamentary) Tory Brexiteers. Like the other major parties, most of them would like to remain but fortunately that decision was taken out of their hands.
Nobody I know who voted to leave wants or expects EU citizens who arrived legitimately in the UK and chose to remain here to be forced to leave. It would be most unjust. They arrived here in good faith, most of them work or have businesses and it would be utterly foolish to force them to leave. This is not about that. It’s clearly an important issue but there is not only the EU citizens living here to consider. There are also around 1m UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU. They too arrived in good faith under the prevailing rules. It would be just as unfair if they were to be forcibly repatriated.
Mrs May tried to get a pre-A50 deal done on the issue which would protect both groups. Her request was refused. Fair enough, that’s the EU’s prerogative (though it seems it was Frau Merkel’s view which held sway, but no matter as it amounts to one and the same thing). Merkel decreed that the issue must be considered as part of the overall deal.
Now we have UK politicians (Lords and now “some Ministers”) who suggest that the protection of the 3m foreigners (which is the only group UK politicians can do anything about) must be protected regardless of what deal is thrashed out for the 1m Brits. This clearly puts the UK at a disadvantage when negotiating as protection for the EU citizens will have been already secured. I would go along with the notion if it included a clause “provided the EU reciprocates if and when it is ready to discuss the matter” but it doesn’t.
And for the record I don’t expect any people from either group to be forcibly repatriated, for reasons I have already explained. I just don’t like to see politicians preening themselves on my behalf.
First of all, Mikey, there are not that many (Parliamentary) Tory Brexiteers. Like the other major parties, most of them would like to remain but fortunately that decision was taken out of their hands.
Nobody I know who voted to leave wants or expects EU citizens who arrived legitimately in the UK and chose to remain here to be forced to leave. It would be most unjust. They arrived here in good faith, most of them work or have businesses and it would be utterly foolish to force them to leave. This is not about that. It’s clearly an important issue but there is not only the EU citizens living here to consider. There are also around 1m UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU. They too arrived in good faith under the prevailing rules. It would be just as unfair if they were to be forcibly repatriated.
Mrs May tried to get a pre-A50 deal done on the issue which would protect both groups. Her request was refused. Fair enough, that’s the EU’s prerogative (though it seems it was Frau Merkel’s view which held sway, but no matter as it amounts to one and the same thing). Merkel decreed that the issue must be considered as part of the overall deal.
Now we have UK politicians (Lords and now “some Ministers”) who suggest that the protection of the 3m foreigners (which is the only group UK politicians can do anything about) must be protected regardless of what deal is thrashed out for the 1m Brits. This clearly puts the UK at a disadvantage when negotiating as protection for the EU citizens will have been already secured. I would go along with the notion if it included a clause “provided the EU reciprocates if and when it is ready to discuss the matter” but it doesn’t.
And for the record I don’t expect any people from either group to be forcibly repatriated, for reasons I have already explained. I just don’t like to see politicians preening themselves on my behalf.
There are 1 million Brits living in different European countries, but 3 Million Europeans living in the UK.
I agree with cassa - I said the same thing here:
http://
Get rid of the spongers and the parasites.
I fully agreed with Norman Tebbit the other day when he told the House of Lords that they were more concerned for the foreigners. The collective gasp that the House did in reply, proved he was spot on.
I agree with cassa - I said the same thing here:
http://
Get rid of the spongers and the parasites.
I fully agreed with Norman Tebbit the other day when he told the House of Lords that they were more concerned for the foreigners. The collective gasp that the House did in reply, proved he was spot on.
Perhaps the EU negotiators think it idiotic to guarantee Britons abroad will retain their rights prior to Britain agreeing the same for EU citizens?
Could we not just say we will guarantee the rights for EU citizens on condition that prior to leaving, our citizens in the EU also retain their rights?
Could we not just say we will guarantee the rights for EU citizens on condition that prior to leaving, our citizens in the EU also retain their rights?
The 3 million Europeans who are here are people who are employed and paying tax. Business and Industry wants them here, and losing that workforce would seriously damage our economy.
The 1.5 Brits abroad are mostly retirees who are not crucial employees, and not not much beneficial to the economies where they reside.
The 1.5 Brits abroad are mostly retirees who are not crucial employees, and not not much beneficial to the economies where they reside.
Gromit, \\The 3 million Europeans who are here are people who are employed and paying tax. Business and Industry wants them here, and losing that workforce would seriously damage our economy.//
this is a Romanian busker in Bristol, this is all he does all day,
Hardly contributing is he, there is also a Romanian big issue seller just up the street as well.
And among the 3 million here im guess there will be a lot not working, and a lot of children.
But they all have one thing in common, they can all use the public services.
Dave.
this is a Romanian busker in Bristol, this is all he does all day,
Hardly contributing is he, there is also a Romanian big issue seller just up the street as well.
And among the 3 million here im guess there will be a lot not working, and a lot of children.
But they all have one thing in common, they can all use the public services.
Dave.
Gromit - I have made the point before - what about all the British people ( a lot of them OAPs who cannot make further payments or work) who went to EU countries in good faith? They MUST, repeat MUST, be held in more importance than any citizens of European countries who reside here. One does not desert one's own. Well, not if you are an honourable person. I think, and trust, that Mrs. May is an honourable person.
With respect you are both missing the point.
It is very likely that there are people in both groups who are net contributors to their adopted nation's economy and equally likely that there are net beneficiaries. It is incorrect to suggest that the ex-pats abroad are of no benefit to their adopted economies if they are retired. Their income will be taxed (and many ex-pat retirees are wealthy) and the money they spend will benefit the local economy and be subject to indirect taxes. But none of that matters. Both groups moved nation in good faith under the prevailing rules. Both groups deserve equal protection.
"Perhaps the EU negotiators think it idiotic to guarantee Britons abroad will retain their rights prior to Britain agreeing the same for EU citizens?"
Quite true, Corby. But as I keep saying, Mrs May offered to conclude a bilateral agreement pre A50 and that offer was rejected. That leads me to believe that the Euromaniacs have in mind using the issue to impose some sort of leverage.
It is very likely that there are people in both groups who are net contributors to their adopted nation's economy and equally likely that there are net beneficiaries. It is incorrect to suggest that the ex-pats abroad are of no benefit to their adopted economies if they are retired. Their income will be taxed (and many ex-pat retirees are wealthy) and the money they spend will benefit the local economy and be subject to indirect taxes. But none of that matters. Both groups moved nation in good faith under the prevailing rules. Both groups deserve equal protection.
"Perhaps the EU negotiators think it idiotic to guarantee Britons abroad will retain their rights prior to Britain agreeing the same for EU citizens?"
Quite true, Corby. But as I keep saying, Mrs May offered to conclude a bilateral agreement pre A50 and that offer was rejected. That leads me to believe that the Euromaniacs have in mind using the issue to impose some sort of leverage.
The thing is, we need those 3 million European workers. We cannot replace them with enough British workers.
That is very obvious, so EU negotiators will be aware of it. They know we will not (we hopefully) cut off our noses to spite our face.
So the quicker these people's (and Brits abroad) lives are taken off the leaving table, the better.
That is very obvious, so EU negotiators will be aware of it. They know we will not (we hopefully) cut off our noses to spite our face.
So the quicker these people's (and Brits abroad) lives are taken off the leaving table, the better.
“So the quicker these people's (and Brits abroad) lives are taken off the leaving table, the better.”
Absolutely agree. And I will repeat that I do not believe any person from either group will be forcibly repatriated whatever agreement is reached and whatever amendments to the A50 legislation are made.
This is all about posturing by politicians who see the need to meddle in things when their intervention is unnecessary.
Absolutely agree. And I will repeat that I do not believe any person from either group will be forcibly repatriated whatever agreement is reached and whatever amendments to the A50 legislation are made.
This is all about posturing by politicians who see the need to meddle in things when their intervention is unnecessary.
Gromit - “The 3 million Europeans who are here are people who are employed and paying tax”.
If you think that all of those 3 million are in paid employment, fully supporting themselves and not claiming any benefits, then you are seriously deluded.
As for the retirees, (and I agree that is what they mostly are) then they are not looking for a job, nor are they likely to hop on a plane back to the UK every time they do their shopping or eat out, but spend their money in their country of residence, therefore contributing to that country’s economy.
If you think that all of those 3 million are in paid employment, fully supporting themselves and not claiming any benefits, then you are seriously deluded.
As for the retirees, (and I agree that is what they mostly are) then they are not looking for a job, nor are they likely to hop on a plane back to the UK every time they do their shopping or eat out, but spend their money in their country of residence, therefore contributing to that country’s economy.
> Should Prime Minster May Pledge That Eu Citizens Can Stay In Uk After Brexit?
Yes.
People's lives should not be used a bargaining chip.
I find it hard to believe that nobody has challenged the simplistic notion that you trade one thing for another.
We can easily pledge right now that EU citizens can stay in the UK after Brexit. That shows leadership and moral strength. We're the ones that have created this situation, after all, by voting to leave. We have to take responsibility for that action.
After we trigger Article 50 and enter negotiations, we can put the status of our citizens abroad top of the agenda. Given that we have already been generous to EU citizens, we should have no trouble negotiating our citizens' status - especially, as NJ pointed out, the idea of forced repatriation ... it just is not going to happen.
But, even given our generosity, suppose we didn't get our way on our citizens? We'd know what we were in for. We could play tough on every other point of negotiation. And we'd have the negotiating high ground with both the EU and the rest of the world.
The point is, we don't need to trade tit for tat, so simplistically. The very fact we're sitting back and equivocating on this makes us look petty and is setting us up for a tougher set of negotiations than there needs to be.
Yes.
People's lives should not be used a bargaining chip.
I find it hard to believe that nobody has challenged the simplistic notion that you trade one thing for another.
We can easily pledge right now that EU citizens can stay in the UK after Brexit. That shows leadership and moral strength. We're the ones that have created this situation, after all, by voting to leave. We have to take responsibility for that action.
After we trigger Article 50 and enter negotiations, we can put the status of our citizens abroad top of the agenda. Given that we have already been generous to EU citizens, we should have no trouble negotiating our citizens' status - especially, as NJ pointed out, the idea of forced repatriation ... it just is not going to happen.
But, even given our generosity, suppose we didn't get our way on our citizens? We'd know what we were in for. We could play tough on every other point of negotiation. And we'd have the negotiating high ground with both the EU and the rest of the world.
The point is, we don't need to trade tit for tat, so simplistically. The very fact we're sitting back and equivocating on this makes us look petty and is setting us up for a tougher set of negotiations than there needs to be.
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