Apart From What Happened When A Single Mad Person Ploughed Into The Crowd And Killed One Woman And Injuring Others, Were The Far-Right Within Their Rights To Protest Against The Removal Of A Historic Confederate General's Statue?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4794870/Minister-hits-Trump-row-neo-Nazi-rally-violence.html

I believe they were, and if the Far-Left choose to violently oppose them, then they should be equally laid to blame, without the need for Trump or anyone else be made to blame just one side specifically.

So Mr Sajid Javid and Shadow defence secretary Nia Griffith, stop your talk about the President of the USA defending Neo-Nazis so should not be allowed a State Visit to the UK.

[Gromit]

They can protest.

But the decision to remove it was by a democratically elected body. A commission was set up and it voted to move the General Lee to a different Park. They were not trying to rewrite history, they just wanted to put the statue in a different locaton.

If they disagreed with that decision, they should unelect those responsible at the next election. The should not try to intimidate the local population.

[jno]

Apart From What Happened When A Single Mad Person Ploughed Into The Crowd And Killed One Woman

a single neo-Nazi, you mean? Why is he "apart" from all the other neo-Nazis? He was one of them.

[anotheoldgit]

Gromit

I can't ague with that Gromit.

But one will always get opposing groups taking to the streets in protest, the same might be said if they decided to move Nelson Mandala's stature.

And if opposing forces decided to take to the streets to oppose them, then they are both equally to blame if violence and damage takes place, and not as in this case the demand that only one group should be insulted by name calling and specifically blamed for their actions.

[ichkeria]

This is very reminiscent of the fuss in Estonia a few years ago when the government decided to move a war memorial commemorating Soviet war dead from the centre of Tallinn to a park a little further away (where, apart from anything else, it was less likely to attract vandalism as a symbol of an organisation which to many Estonians was hardly one of liberation, but rather of murder and repression).
I don't recall the Russians, in the midst of their whipping up of misplaced (in this case spurious anti-Nazi) hysteria, actually killing anyone though.

[Khandro]

Gromit; //A commission was set up and it voted to move the General Lee to a different Park. They were not trying to rewrite history,//

I believe they plan to sell the statue not simply move it to another location, and yes, they are trying rewrite history, but there is no delete button, the civil war was a terrible period in American history, with good and bad people on both sides. After his side lost, Lee he is quoted as saying to a Confederate widow;
"Madam, don’t bring up your sons to detest the United States government. Recollect that we form one country now. Abandon all these local animosities, and make your sons Americans."

[naomi24]

The statue has been there for almost a century. It was commissioned long after the Civil War ended. Why suddenly now?

[ludwig]

// Were The Far-Right Within Their Rights To Protest Against The Removal Of A Historic Confederate General's Statue? //

Of course they were, but it's the way they go about it. Also, the trouble with neo-nazis and racists is that they're horrible people that support an evil ideology. When they organise marches, other people feel it necessary to organise counter protests, because even though everyone's entitled to free speech, it's not nice to see people with swastika flags wearing KKK hoods and carrying clubs and assault rifles marching through the neighbourhood.

[Khandro]

Ludwig; Some interesting pics on here of the 'counter demonstrators', including one spraying fire at the protesters.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/protests-nationalists-charlottesville/536661/

[Khandro]

Also an interesting account by Jim Goad here;
http://takimag.com/article/dividing_the_white_jim_goad/print#disqus_thread

including a short profile of Wes Bellamy , Charlotteville's deputy mayor, who really hates whites.

[youngmafbog]

I raised this yesterday and true to form the left on here failed to condemn violent and criminal acts attempting instead to try and deflect to the utlra right.

Unfortunately time and time again (around the world) we see the left attempt to stop free speech by blocking a protest. Both sides should be allowed to protest freely without fear of violence and provocation which is what Trump is trying to say. They left however dont want that they want to be able to silence the right but have their view aired with no issue.

In the US there is a further problem. The left just cannot understand why they are not in power so they are doing anything they can to thwart democracy. We will see more and more of this.

[jim360]

Whereas, of course, actual Nazis are totally in favour of preserving free speech.

[youngmafbog]

And there we go again. Instead of condemning the left an attempt to divert to the Nazis.

[jim360]

I'm not "diverting" to the Nazis. There were actual Nazis at the original protest. And it's those people whose freedom of speech you are so keen to preserve, those who support a party whose very existence was based on denying it to all and sundry.

I'm happily up for debating the general approach of the Left, and at various points on AB I have conceded that it can be less than helpful, but to equate the two sides in Charlottesville, or to get all het up about the right to free speech being denied to Nazis, beggars belief.

It's worth pointing out anyway that, even in the US, the right to free speech is not absolute, not without certain conditions. It comes with a responsibility; one that those on the far right are determined to ignore or trample over.

[youngmafbog]

Still no unequivocal condemnation of violent left wing protestors.

Jim, in a democracy any legal party is entitled to freedom of speech. In some cases, for example Nazi's, this is very unpalatable but until the law forbids it then it is not acceptable to prevent them speaking by violence. Instead a counter argument, and in the case of Nazi's it is not difficult, should be put.

[youngmafbog]

Of course it's hardly surprising since one of your lot is all for left wing violence (McDonnel)

[jim360]

I'm not going to "unequivocally" condemn people who would not have been there were it not for the first group, no. I condemn the destruction of statues and defacement of historical monuments absolutely; if such statues should be removed then it should only be through a due process -- as, incidentally, the statue at the heart of this whole story was anyway.

Charlottesville is a modern-day Battle of Cable Street; I am not sure who to condemn for that crisis, but at a pinch I expect most people would plump for Oswald Mosley, the guy who started the whole thing and who attempted to bring fascism to the UK. Thankfully, at the time most in the UK had the good sense to treat him with the contempt he and those who supported him deserved. In both cases the violence is regrettable, and I wish it had not happened; in both cases it was entirely the fault of the fascists.

[Garaman]

I don't think some of those guys turned up to practice free speech. Just listen to Christopher Cantwell from about the 19m point on this video. I know, perhaps there were two mad people involved...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/a-lot-more-people-going-10996815

[Khandro]

jim; You are so quick and ready to bandy about words like Nazis and Fascists, but do you know what they really mean? and trying to relate the subject under discussion with events leading to WWII is completely fatuous.
Stick to the maths Jim.

[jim360]

I'm not sure about you Khandro, but I was under the impression that Nazi flags and Nazis salutes are a pretty good guide to people brandishing them being Nazis.

Also, linking a clash between the far-right and the left in the mid 1930s to a clash between the far-right and the left in 2017 isn't "fatuous".

[sp1814]

Apart from what happened when...

Holy cow.

I mean, seriously!!!

We are thoroughly through the looking glass now.

AOG - a generation died fighting Nazis. They are the origin of evil.

They slaughtered millions of Jewish people.

Millions.

Anyone today who aligns themselves with that ideology is in the wrong.

Full stop.

Anyone who opposes them is in the right.

I literally cannot believe that someone of your age, who MUST know the evils of the Nazi movement could use such a quisling argument.

The KKK and neo Nazi movements are not good for the world. They beget violence.

There are people alive today who have borne witness to their lynchings and genocide.

Time to take sides.

I'm with those who oppose them.

What about you?