Crosswords0 min ago
Migrants Stranded At Sea
Italy is refusing to allow a boat with over 600 migrants to dock at it's ports. https:/
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//You should have a go at the old virtue-signalling, JD.
Costs nowt and gives you the warm glow of superiority over lesser mortals.//
It really doesn't take much to feel superior to you Spicerack, and to answer your earlier questions I reckon comfortably we could house 10 people here and yes very happy to thanks very much. Iceland are happy to take one family per Icelandic family incidentally, so some nations still have their house in order with regards to common decency and humanity.
Costs nowt and gives you the warm glow of superiority over lesser mortals.//
It really doesn't take much to feel superior to you Spicerack, and to answer your earlier questions I reckon comfortably we could house 10 people here and yes very happy to thanks very much. Iceland are happy to take one family per Icelandic family incidentally, so some nations still have their house in order with regards to common decency and humanity.
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When put in those terms, it's difficult not to agree with the point you are making, v-e. Mass migration tends to create misery both for the migrants and for those who were already there. I remember having an argument with my parents about this a couple of years ago, when I was trying to point out that in practice there wasn't much difference between migration from poor countries to rich countries, and from the countryside to the big cities. This point of mine was, however, shut down rather rapidly with the single work "Slums."*
So, yes, presumably there *is* a number that everyone has in mind as an upper limit, although I don't think anyone could confidently say what it was.
All the same, there are two reasons at least that I would still disagree with you. Firstly, it's a mistake to assume, as some seem to, that turning the boats away in any sense solves the problem. People will still want to come here, both to escape from their old lives and to hope for better lives elsewhere. They will still take desperate steps in an attempt to improve their lot, risking their lives and those of others to make the journey. It won't stop just because a port closes. I don't want to labour the point, but still: no-one would make such a treacherous journey on a whim, or because they are happy already but want to be even happier. So any solution to the problem is not about closing the border, or trying to, but about working to improve the chances that people will want to stay put. Otherwise we are turning our back on the problem and hoping it will go away, perhaps even by yet more drowning victims.
Secondly, no matter how stretched the UK, and Europe, appears to be (and is) in terms of resources, there is the potential to sustain far more people than we give it credit for. "All" that is required is to ensure that resources are distributed more evenly. Of course, that's a pipe dream, and I'm not seriously endorsing communism, but still, it's somewhat illogical to live in a country where food waste is a massive issue, where people regularly use far more water than they need, where many other resources are used far from efficiently -- it's not really logical to have all of that, and then claim that "we're bursting at the seams".
We're used to a different, and better, standard of living. It's not selfish to want to hold on to that -- why not make the most of our luck? -- but it's rather sad to see that anyone wanting even a fraction of that for themselves be cynically dismissed as a scrounger or "economic migrant", worthy (apparently) of less compassion than animals.
*Just to be clear, though, both my parents would have every sympathy with the migrants, and would absolutely not support posts by eg david small et al.
So, yes, presumably there *is* a number that everyone has in mind as an upper limit, although I don't think anyone could confidently say what it was.
All the same, there are two reasons at least that I would still disagree with you. Firstly, it's a mistake to assume, as some seem to, that turning the boats away in any sense solves the problem. People will still want to come here, both to escape from their old lives and to hope for better lives elsewhere. They will still take desperate steps in an attempt to improve their lot, risking their lives and those of others to make the journey. It won't stop just because a port closes. I don't want to labour the point, but still: no-one would make such a treacherous journey on a whim, or because they are happy already but want to be even happier. So any solution to the problem is not about closing the border, or trying to, but about working to improve the chances that people will want to stay put. Otherwise we are turning our back on the problem and hoping it will go away, perhaps even by yet more drowning victims.
Secondly, no matter how stretched the UK, and Europe, appears to be (and is) in terms of resources, there is the potential to sustain far more people than we give it credit for. "All" that is required is to ensure that resources are distributed more evenly. Of course, that's a pipe dream, and I'm not seriously endorsing communism, but still, it's somewhat illogical to live in a country where food waste is a massive issue, where people regularly use far more water than they need, where many other resources are used far from efficiently -- it's not really logical to have all of that, and then claim that "we're bursting at the seams".
We're used to a different, and better, standard of living. It's not selfish to want to hold on to that -- why not make the most of our luck? -- but it's rather sad to see that anyone wanting even a fraction of that for themselves be cynically dismissed as a scrounger or "economic migrant", worthy (apparently) of less compassion than animals.
*Just to be clear, though, both my parents would have every sympathy with the migrants, and would absolutely not support posts by eg david small et al.
As these water taxis get bigger they should go further afield to save many of their clients a gruelling journey overland halfway up Africa. With all the money these charities are pulling in it's a disgrace that they can't have some old liners plying the west coast and the Horn of Africa, thereby saving these folk the very worst part of their journey which is running the gauntlet of robbers, kidnappers and extortion at every border as they trek north.
gulliver1
/// Spath , give up , just let her have the last word , it's as simple as that ///
I would much rather persons with a little coke am have the last word than the likes of you who if given the chance would see our country spoiled beyond all recognition.
Maybe you are an immigrant yourself and couldn't care less, seeing that your forefathers didn't build this country into one of the best countries in the world.
/// Spath , give up , just let her have the last word , it's as simple as that ///
I would much rather persons with a little coke am have the last word than the likes of you who if given the chance would see our country spoiled beyond all recognition.
Maybe you are an immigrant yourself and couldn't care less, seeing that your forefathers didn't build this country into one of the best countries in the world.
Italy has taken it 's fair share over the years and so has Spain, luckily the rescue ship is at least 1,000miles away in the Mediterranean.
If the situation were that this rescue mission was off the coast of Norfolk in the North Sea some 10 miles away, if the discussions would be the same.
A humanitarian approach or "not in my back garden" attitude.
Offering advice from `1,000miles away is quite a different problem than putting your words into action.
All difficult decisions are bound to be contentious and this is a difficult problem.
If course the families have to be saved.....but hey! UK, you are miles away and won't have to deal with the problem other than offer your condolences.
Italy has had enough, Spain will soon have had enough.......UK next?
If the situation were that this rescue mission was off the coast of Norfolk in the North Sea some 10 miles away, if the discussions would be the same.
A humanitarian approach or "not in my back garden" attitude.
Offering advice from `1,000miles away is quite a different problem than putting your words into action.
All difficult decisions are bound to be contentious and this is a difficult problem.
If course the families have to be saved.....but hey! UK, you are miles away and won't have to deal with the problem other than offer your condolences.
Italy has had enough, Spain will soon have had enough.......UK next?
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fender62
/// perhaps some investment in local works like farming road building etc, makes jobs improves infrastructure. ///
Or better still re-colonise the whole of Africa and show them how to run a continent, just like we did before when we gave them railways, built their bridges buildings, dams eic. and gave them Law.
/// perhaps some investment in local works like farming road building etc, makes jobs improves infrastructure. ///
Or better still re-colonise the whole of Africa and show them how to run a continent, just like we did before when we gave them railways, built their bridges buildings, dams eic. and gave them Law.
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Thanks, Jim
You say "...it's a mistake to assume,... that turning the boats away in any sense solves the problem. People will still want to...escape from their old lives ...for better lives elsewhere... take desperate steps in an attempt to improve their lot... It won't stop just because a port closes."
Don't disagree with any of that, Jim The solution begins with coherent immigration policy. A useful starting point for that would be defining more rigorously than we have been used to terms like "refugee", "asylum-seeker" and "economic migrant". These terms are frequently conflated or used interchangeably to suit local agenda.
The boats stop when Europe starts to enforce its laws against illegal immigration (or, in Italy's case repeals the immunity given to its Mare Nostrum "boat people"). Enforcement would mean taking action against the NGO's who are colluding with the traffickers.
There are legal routes by which any category of migrant can seek residence in Europe.
You say "...it's a mistake to assume,... that turning the boats away in any sense solves the problem. People will still want to...escape from their old lives ...for better lives elsewhere... take desperate steps in an attempt to improve their lot... It won't stop just because a port closes."
Don't disagree with any of that, Jim The solution begins with coherent immigration policy. A useful starting point for that would be defining more rigorously than we have been used to terms like "refugee", "asylum-seeker" and "economic migrant". These terms are frequently conflated or used interchangeably to suit local agenda.
The boats stop when Europe starts to enforce its laws against illegal immigration (or, in Italy's case repeals the immunity given to its Mare Nostrum "boat people"). Enforcement would mean taking action against the NGO's who are colluding with the traffickers.
There are legal routes by which any category of migrant can seek residence in Europe.
Once upon a time South Africa, Rhodesia, Kenya and more had vibrant economies and a problem of illegal immigration into the countries. The regimes were "changed" sometimes violently and the results cheered and applauded by our Liberal manipulators. Not so long hence, despite the utopian paradises provided by the "new" leaders, all these Countries have now got mass outgoing migration of the indigenous people despite the regimes being governed by the local populace. Guess where they want to move to?(You're ahead of me here aren't you) Yep, bullseye, to the countries of their former hated "masters" and suppressers. Go Figure.
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