Quizzes & Puzzles38 mins ago
Brexit: Think Again
Michael Morpurgo argues it's time to think again over Brexit.
"It is surely time to accept that we have made a mistake", he writes, "that whichever way we voted, things are not turning out the way we expected".
"Or are we too proud?" he asks.
Listen, if you're not one of the shouty brigade, to Morpurgo's reasoned argument on BBC4's Point of View
https:/
It's only ten minutes long, and will give you cause/pause for thought.
BillB
"It is surely time to accept that we have made a mistake", he writes, "that whichever way we voted, things are not turning out the way we expected".
"Or are we too proud?" he asks.
Listen, if you're not one of the shouty brigade, to Morpurgo's reasoned argument on BBC4's Point of View
https:/
It's only ten minutes long, and will give you cause/pause for thought.
BillB
Answers
Sir Michael Andrew Bridge Morpurgo, OBE, FRSL, FKC, DL is an English book author, poet, playwright, and librettist who is known best for children's novels such as War Horse. Although aimed primarily at young people, these can be read by people of all ages. I have heard him talk and it was one of the most enjoyable talks I have been to. Will listen to his argument...
10:23 Sun 05th Aug 2018
And what have the EU ever done to us ?! Nothing, you can't find examples.
Banned the incadescent lightbulb ?
What?
The incadescent lightbulb
Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did ban that. Uh, that's true, but insignificant. Yeah.
And the effective weedkillers.
Oh, yeah, the weedkillers Zacs. Remember what the patio used to be like?
Yeah. Insignificant but all right. I'll grant you the lightbulb and the weedkiller are two things that the EU have banned.
And the powerful vacuum cleaner.
Well, yeah. Obviously the vacuum. I mean, the vacuum goes without saying, doesn't it. But apart from the lightbulb, the weedkiller, and the vacuum...
The strong paint stripper.
Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough. But apart from the lightbulb, the weedkiller, the vacuum and the paint stripper what have the EU ever done to affect us ?
What's a little concerning, highlighted by the above, is that a similar argument to excuse the situation with the EU can, with little change, be used to excuse an invader.
Why are you so against being occupied ? Bert the baker, you still make bread the same as before don't you ? And Greg the grocer, you still sell veg ? Bill the brewer, you can carry on making beer ? So what's your beef ? Aside from improving the security around here, as disidents and resistance need to be brought to justice, it's all "could be" and "might be" isn't it ? We're doing ok aren't we, why rock the boat ?
Banned the incadescent lightbulb ?
What?
The incadescent lightbulb
Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did ban that. Uh, that's true, but insignificant. Yeah.
And the effective weedkillers.
Oh, yeah, the weedkillers Zacs. Remember what the patio used to be like?
Yeah. Insignificant but all right. I'll grant you the lightbulb and the weedkiller are two things that the EU have banned.
And the powerful vacuum cleaner.
Well, yeah. Obviously the vacuum. I mean, the vacuum goes without saying, doesn't it. But apart from the lightbulb, the weedkiller, and the vacuum...
The strong paint stripper.
Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough. But apart from the lightbulb, the weedkiller, the vacuum and the paint stripper what have the EU ever done to affect us ?
What's a little concerning, highlighted by the above, is that a similar argument to excuse the situation with the EU can, with little change, be used to excuse an invader.
Why are you so against being occupied ? Bert the baker, you still make bread the same as before don't you ? And Greg the grocer, you still sell veg ? Bill the brewer, you can carry on making beer ? So what's your beef ? Aside from improving the security around here, as disidents and resistance need to be brought to justice, it's all "could be" and "might be" isn't it ? We're doing ok aren't we, why rock the boat ?
Sometimes I think old geezer is an alternative handle for the self-styled ‘new judge’; verbose, pompous, and ultimately without a fresh idea on this subject (or many others).
Think, if possible, geezer, of the bigger, longer picture - move away from the selfish, self-interested little Englander.
Let’s join the world!
Think, if possible, geezer, of the bigger, longer picture - move away from the selfish, self-interested little Englander.
Let’s join the world!
bainbrig - // Michael Morpurgo argues it's time to think again over Brexit.
"It is surely time to accept that we have made a mistake", he writes, "that whichever way we voted, things are not turning out the way we expected".//
To return to your OP -
I re-think every major decision I have ever made, including the ones like the Referendum, which I cannot change.
And that is the point isn't it?
We can 'think again' until the earth spins into the sun, but unless the mechanism for another vote is made available, thinking is all we can do.
And as for things 'not turning out the way we expected ...' I for one see them turning out precisely as I expected!
The EU will fight and drag its feet every inch of the way, did anyone think they would let us go with a wink and a cheery wave?
So yet another talking head wrings his hands and infers we were all too stupid to vote 'correctly', when in fact that remains to be seen.
In terms of knowing how things will actually end up, Mr Morpurgo know as much as me, and everyone else, which is absolutely nothing.
"It is surely time to accept that we have made a mistake", he writes, "that whichever way we voted, things are not turning out the way we expected".//
To return to your OP -
I re-think every major decision I have ever made, including the ones like the Referendum, which I cannot change.
And that is the point isn't it?
We can 'think again' until the earth spins into the sun, but unless the mechanism for another vote is made available, thinking is all we can do.
And as for things 'not turning out the way we expected ...' I for one see them turning out precisely as I expected!
The EU will fight and drag its feet every inch of the way, did anyone think they would let us go with a wink and a cheery wave?
So yet another talking head wrings his hands and infers we were all too stupid to vote 'correctly', when in fact that remains to be seen.
In terms of knowing how things will actually end up, Mr Morpurgo know as much as me, and everyone else, which is absolutely nothing.
Here's a list of the Treaties of Paris:
Treaty of Paris (1229), ended the Albigensian Crusade
Treaty of Paris (1259), between Henry III of England and Louis IX of France
Treaty of Paris (1303), between king Philip IV of France and King Edward I of England
Treaty of Paris (1320) (fr), peace between future king Philip V of France and Robert III, Count of Flanders
Treaty of Paris (1323), count Louis of Flanders relinquished Flemish claims over Zeeland
Treaty of Paris (1355), a land exchange between France and Savoy
Treaty of Paris (1515) (fr), planning the marriage of the 15-year old future King Charles I of Spain and 4-year old Renée of France
Treaty of Paris (1623), between France, Savoy, and Venice against Spanish forces in Valtelline
Treaty of Paris (1626), peace between king Louis XIII and the Huguenots of La Rochelle
Treaty of Paris (1657), established military alliance between France and England against Spain
Treaty of Paris (1718) (fr), between Philip or Orléans, Regent of France and Leopold, Duke of Lorraine
Treaty of Paris (1761), established the third Bourbon Family Compact between France and Spain
Treaty of Paris (1763), ended the Seven Years' War/French and Indian War
Treaty of Paris (1783), ended the American Revolutionary War
Treaty of Paris (1784), ended the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War
Treaty of Paris (1796), ended the war between France and the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia
Treaty of Paris (1802), ended the war between France and the Ottoman Empire
Treaty of Paris (February 1806), between France and Prussia
Treaty of Paris (May 1806) (fr), between France and the Batavian Republic, creating the Kingdom of Holland
Treaty of Paris (July 1806) (fr), creating the Confederation of the Rhine
Treaty of Paris (1810), ended the war between France and Sweden
Treaty of Paris (1812), established an alliance between France and Prussia against Russia
Treaty of Paris (1814), a peace treaty, signed on 30 May 1814, between France, and the Sixth Coalition
Treaty of Paris (1815), peace treaty, followed the defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo
Treaty of Paris (1856), ended the Crimean War
Treaty of Paris (1857), ended the Anglo-Persian War
Paris Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property (1883), one of the first intellectual property treaties
Treaty of Paris (1898), ended the Spanish–American War
Treaty of Paris (1900), ended all conflicting claims between France and Spain over Río Muni
Treaty of Paris (1918) (fr), between France and Monaco adapting provisions of the Franco-Monegasque Treaty of 1861 in the context of the Monaco succession crisis of 1918
Paris Convention of 1919, was the first international convention to address the political difficulties and intricacies involved in international aerial navigation
Treaty of Paris (1920), united Bessarabia and Romania
Treaties of Paris that ended World War I:
Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye (1919), with Austria
Treaty of Neuilly-sur-Seine, with Bulgaria
Treaty of Versailles, with Germany
Treaty of Trianon, with Hungary
Treaty of Sèvres, with the Ottoman Empire
Paris Peace Treaties, 1947, formally established peace between the World War II Allies and Bulgaria, Hungary, Italy, Romania and Finland
Treaty of Paris (1951), established the European Coal and Steel Community
Bonn–Paris conventions (1952), putting an end to the Allied occupation of West Germany
Treaty of Paris (1952), creating the still-born European Defence Community
Paris Convention on Third Party Liability in the field of Nuclear Energy (1960), liability and compensation for damage caused by accidents occurring while producing nuclear energy.
Paris Peace Accords (1973), ended American involvement in the Vietnam War
Paris Charter (1990), helped form the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe
1991 Paris Peace Accords, marked the end of the Cambodian-Vietnamese War
Dayton Agreement (1995, formally signed in Paris), ending the Bosnia War
Paris Agreement (2015), an international agreement regarding global warming
Oth
Treaty of Paris (1229), ended the Albigensian Crusade
Treaty of Paris (1259), between Henry III of England and Louis IX of France
Treaty of Paris (1303), between king Philip IV of France and King Edward I of England
Treaty of Paris (1320) (fr), peace between future king Philip V of France and Robert III, Count of Flanders
Treaty of Paris (1323), count Louis of Flanders relinquished Flemish claims over Zeeland
Treaty of Paris (1355), a land exchange between France and Savoy
Treaty of Paris (1515) (fr), planning the marriage of the 15-year old future King Charles I of Spain and 4-year old Renée of France
Treaty of Paris (1623), between France, Savoy, and Venice against Spanish forces in Valtelline
Treaty of Paris (1626), peace between king Louis XIII and the Huguenots of La Rochelle
Treaty of Paris (1657), established military alliance between France and England against Spain
Treaty of Paris (1718) (fr), between Philip or Orléans, Regent of France and Leopold, Duke of Lorraine
Treaty of Paris (1761), established the third Bourbon Family Compact between France and Spain
Treaty of Paris (1763), ended the Seven Years' War/French and Indian War
Treaty of Paris (1783), ended the American Revolutionary War
Treaty of Paris (1784), ended the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War
Treaty of Paris (1796), ended the war between France and the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia
Treaty of Paris (1802), ended the war between France and the Ottoman Empire
Treaty of Paris (February 1806), between France and Prussia
Treaty of Paris (May 1806) (fr), between France and the Batavian Republic, creating the Kingdom of Holland
Treaty of Paris (July 1806) (fr), creating the Confederation of the Rhine
Treaty of Paris (1810), ended the war between France and Sweden
Treaty of Paris (1812), established an alliance between France and Prussia against Russia
Treaty of Paris (1814), a peace treaty, signed on 30 May 1814, between France, and the Sixth Coalition
Treaty of Paris (1815), peace treaty, followed the defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo
Treaty of Paris (1856), ended the Crimean War
Treaty of Paris (1857), ended the Anglo-Persian War
Paris Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property (1883), one of the first intellectual property treaties
Treaty of Paris (1898), ended the Spanish–American War
Treaty of Paris (1900), ended all conflicting claims between France and Spain over Río Muni
Treaty of Paris (1918) (fr), between France and Monaco adapting provisions of the Franco-Monegasque Treaty of 1861 in the context of the Monaco succession crisis of 1918
Paris Convention of 1919, was the first international convention to address the political difficulties and intricacies involved in international aerial navigation
Treaty of Paris (1920), united Bessarabia and Romania
Treaties of Paris that ended World War I:
Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye (1919), with Austria
Treaty of Neuilly-sur-Seine, with Bulgaria
Treaty of Versailles, with Germany
Treaty of Trianon, with Hungary
Treaty of Sèvres, with the Ottoman Empire
Paris Peace Treaties, 1947, formally established peace between the World War II Allies and Bulgaria, Hungary, Italy, Romania and Finland
Treaty of Paris (1951), established the European Coal and Steel Community
Bonn–Paris conventions (1952), putting an end to the Allied occupation of West Germany
Treaty of Paris (1952), creating the still-born European Defence Community
Paris Convention on Third Party Liability in the field of Nuclear Energy (1960), liability and compensation for damage caused by accidents occurring while producing nuclear energy.
Paris Peace Accords (1973), ended American involvement in the Vietnam War
Paris Charter (1990), helped form the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe
1991 Paris Peace Accords, marked the end of the Cambodian-Vietnamese War
Dayton Agreement (1995, formally signed in Paris), ending the Bosnia War
Paris Agreement (2015), an international agreement regarding global warming
Oth
I am a staunch leaver and make no apologies for that. I was against the project from the very start and nothing I have seen over the past 45 years has caused me to change my mind. Whether we leave on terms which are acceptable and beneficial to the UK or No Deal is of no consequence. The scaremongering tactics of the Remain rearguard serve only to sow discord where none should exist.
"...with a standard of living way above what we had when we joined the common Market?"
Virtually every country in the developed world - including, incredible as it may seem, many outside the EU - have a standard of living way above that enjoyed in 1973.
"...that the EU actually ‘sell us into’ other countries and add their weight to negotiating Better deals?"
The EU is not particularly good at negotiating trade deals. The main reason is that it has to satisfy the requirements of 28 very disparate nations. All of them have to individually ratify any trade agreements the EU concludes, each having a veto over their conclusion. I believe the EU has about 36 free trade deals in force. Notable absentees from the list are the two of the worlds largest and fastest growing economies, China and India. Negotiations with the latter went on for eight years before finally "stalling" (i.e. were abandoned) in 2015. Another notable absentee of course is the USA with the proposed TTIP now largely dead in the water after five years of discussions. For the sake of balance among the EU's more notable successes are economic titans Andorra and the Faroe islands.
Of course there is no guarantee that the UK alone will be any more successful at securing trade deals. But with the worlds largest economy and two of the fastest growing missing from the EU's list I think an alternative to hanging on to Nanny EU's apron strings is worth a try.
Virtually every country in the developed world - including, incredible as it may seem, many outside the EU - have a standard of living way above that enjoyed in 1973.
"...that the EU actually ‘sell us into’ other countries and add their weight to negotiating Better deals?"
The EU is not particularly good at negotiating trade deals. The main reason is that it has to satisfy the requirements of 28 very disparate nations. All of them have to individually ratify any trade agreements the EU concludes, each having a veto over their conclusion. I believe the EU has about 36 free trade deals in force. Notable absentees from the list are the two of the worlds largest and fastest growing economies, China and India. Negotiations with the latter went on for eight years before finally "stalling" (i.e. were abandoned) in 2015. Another notable absentee of course is the USA with the proposed TTIP now largely dead in the water after five years of discussions. For the sake of balance among the EU's more notable successes are economic titans Andorra and the Faroe islands.
Of course there is no guarantee that the UK alone will be any more successful at securing trade deals. But with the worlds largest economy and two of the fastest growing missing from the EU's list I think an alternative to hanging on to Nanny EU's apron strings is worth a try.
Sorry, Zacs, I think you've lost the plot. A sensible debate on trade deals degenerated quickly to return to light bulbs.
I (and others) have tried treating your increasingly bizarre posts with some respect and dignity but it clearly doesn't work. I don't know what you're taking but let me know when you're off them. Then we might be able to return to sensible debate and discussion. Until then I think I'd better steer clear of responding to your posts. No doubt you'll interpret that as me having lost the debate. I think I'll manage to live with that.
I (and others) have tried treating your increasingly bizarre posts with some respect and dignity but it clearly doesn't work. I don't know what you're taking but let me know when you're off them. Then we might be able to return to sensible debate and discussion. Until then I think I'd better steer clear of responding to your posts. No doubt you'll interpret that as me having lost the debate. I think I'll manage to live with that.
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