Spectator - Christmas Crossword -...
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Credit Where It's Due Part 1637.6
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Just listened to Jezza's response to the PM, he's bang on, this is a bungled and botched deal. We have screwed it right up. From a position where we should have had a good hand to play to this disaster. As much as I hate COB Labour and all they stand for, it seems we must rely on them to stop this disaster making it through the house and ensuring we leave with no deal.
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The notion that a Labour government should be voted in just to get rid of May is moronic."
You need to make the distinction between calling someone a moron and their opinions moronic. Its important in a grown up debate. If I called you, or anyone, a moron it would be against Site Rules.
You need to make the distinction between calling someone a moron and their opinions moronic. Its important in a grown up debate. If I called you, or anyone, a moron it would be against Site Rules.
The blame for this omni-shambles lies squarely with the previous administration.
They were soooo convinced that the nation would vote to Remain in Europe that apart from spending weeks and ££££s on making sure that the question on the paper was even-handed and couldn't be later challenged by the losing side, that they didn't even bother attempting to establish any mechanisms by which leaving the EU could be achieved.
Their granting of the Referendum was done in such an off-hand and dismissive manner...."Oh, for heaven's sake, alright then! We'll have a referendum just to shut you all up and then once that's done and dusted we'll get on with business as usual...."
Once Cameron realised that the nation had chosen a direction for which his Cabinet were wholly unprepared he ignobly jumped ship leaving it to others (equally ill-prepared) to sort out the mess.
It seems that May secured the premiership due to that time-honoured tradition of everyone else in line taking a step back. The 'Brexit-Premier' was always destined to be given a good kicking.
I don't believe that *any* Prime Minister would have been able to steer us successfully and satisfactorily (to all) through these waters; with the ship having been holed below the water-line years before by the indifference and complacency from those at Westminster.
The dissent in our own Parliament has handed our EU 'partners' a wealth of crowbars to insert into an ever growing number of cracks.
They were soooo convinced that the nation would vote to Remain in Europe that apart from spending weeks and ££££s on making sure that the question on the paper was even-handed and couldn't be later challenged by the losing side, that they didn't even bother attempting to establish any mechanisms by which leaving the EU could be achieved.
Their granting of the Referendum was done in such an off-hand and dismissive manner...."Oh, for heaven's sake, alright then! We'll have a referendum just to shut you all up and then once that's done and dusted we'll get on with business as usual...."
Once Cameron realised that the nation had chosen a direction for which his Cabinet were wholly unprepared he ignobly jumped ship leaving it to others (equally ill-prepared) to sort out the mess.
It seems that May secured the premiership due to that time-honoured tradition of everyone else in line taking a step back. The 'Brexit-Premier' was always destined to be given a good kicking.
I don't believe that *any* Prime Minister would have been able to steer us successfully and satisfactorily (to all) through these waters; with the ship having been holed below the water-line years before by the indifference and complacency from those at Westminster.
The dissent in our own Parliament has handed our EU 'partners' a wealth of crowbars to insert into an ever growing number of cracks.
Why is that [a “no deal” departure] the best option?
It depends what your motives were when you voted Leave. Mine were simple: to extract the UK from the EU and all its institutions and to allow the UK Parliament to regain control over our borders, our money, our trade and our laws. Nothing much else mattered to me. I knew that in the short term the EU would try to create difficulties; it didn’t matter to me that I “might” be a few pounds worse off or that I might not be able to take my dog to Benidorm for a fortnight. The UK’s sovereignty is not for sale – at any price.
I knew there may be short term disruption until common sense prevailed. But I also knew that any “compromise” would weigh heavily in the EU’s favour (though not quite as heavily as it would if this deal is agreed). For me, the only way to achieve my objectives was to leave with a clean break and no deal. That’s why it’s the best option for me. Others may think differently. They are obviously prepared to sacrifice the long term wellbeing of this country, along with its sovereignty, for the proverbial thirty pieces of silver (which the UK will pay for anyway).
The problem is that everybody who has had anything to do with this has viewed their role as a damage limitation exercise. They have reluctantly accepted that they must honour the result of the referendum but have tried to retain as many of the advantages of membership as they can. The EU is (quite understandably) having none of it and this deal leaves us in the EU in all but name for as long as the EU decides. There is talk in some of the Press of the deal being “the best we can hope for”. Well the UK wasn’t built on hoping that foreigners would treat us well; it was built by the people in it having principles and sticking to them even if it meant a few unpleasantries along the way.
It depends what your motives were when you voted Leave. Mine were simple: to extract the UK from the EU and all its institutions and to allow the UK Parliament to regain control over our borders, our money, our trade and our laws. Nothing much else mattered to me. I knew that in the short term the EU would try to create difficulties; it didn’t matter to me that I “might” be a few pounds worse off or that I might not be able to take my dog to Benidorm for a fortnight. The UK’s sovereignty is not for sale – at any price.
I knew there may be short term disruption until common sense prevailed. But I also knew that any “compromise” would weigh heavily in the EU’s favour (though not quite as heavily as it would if this deal is agreed). For me, the only way to achieve my objectives was to leave with a clean break and no deal. That’s why it’s the best option for me. Others may think differently. They are obviously prepared to sacrifice the long term wellbeing of this country, along with its sovereignty, for the proverbial thirty pieces of silver (which the UK will pay for anyway).
The problem is that everybody who has had anything to do with this has viewed their role as a damage limitation exercise. They have reluctantly accepted that they must honour the result of the referendum but have tried to retain as many of the advantages of membership as they can. The EU is (quite understandably) having none of it and this deal leaves us in the EU in all but name for as long as the EU decides. There is talk in some of the Press of the deal being “the best we can hope for”. Well the UK wasn’t built on hoping that foreigners would treat us well; it was built by the people in it having principles and sticking to them even if it meant a few unpleasantries along the way.
It's unlikely, in the scenario that AOG offers, that we'd ever have left. More plausible is that the deal is voted down (or never voted on at all), a new PM suggests a pause in A50, the EU gratefully and immediately accepts it, and then a second vote overturns the 2016 decision. Then we withdraw A50 altogether and preserve the status quo. No need to invent scenarios in which we're punished like a naughty schoolboy.
Fine. And what happens if (as I suspect) a second vote returns the same result? And do you really think that the EU will not seek some retribution for our disobedience? If so your opinion of that wretched organisation is higher than mine. They have spent two years faffing about trying to accommodate our wish to "leave - but not really".
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