ChatterBank69 mins ago
Looks Like The P M Has It Nailed Already.
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So the VONC is a complete waste of time.
So the VONC is a complete waste of time.
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> A second referendum would be more divisive than the first because it would start from a point where people’s positions are already entrenched. It won’t be about wavering voters making up their minds based on reasoned debate (or even lies), but rather a tug of war for supremacy between two political tribes.
I agree that the positions are entrenched. The difference is:
1) Number of old voters who have died since the first referendum
2) Number of young voters who are now eligible to vote
3) The key one - the number of non-voters last time who will vote this time
I think - but can't be entirely sure of course - that all three of these weigh in favour of Remain.
Despite that, and as a Remain voter, I can't see that a second Referendum would help. What could it possibly decide?
1) To Remain after all. This would be a disaster IMO. We'd be a laughing stock and suffer constant kickings for returning to the fold with our tail between our legs
2) No deal Brexit. This would also be a disaster IMO. Even worse in fact. It's too far away from the 52:48 balance and is too heavily in favour of ideology and against practicality
3) Something in between. It would be impossible to reach a nuanced in-between position via referendum. This is what we need, but it's our Parliament that needs to be delivering it.
We the people have expressed ourselves in a couple of ways:
1) We voted 52:48 on a 72% turnout. The deal we do needs to reflect this split.
2) We didn't give a single party a majority in the last election. Therefore they needed to work together to get this deal through.
The problem is that when you consider the personalities involved at the top of the two main parties, and even within the two main parties, working together was never really an option. This is how we have ended up in the mucking fuddle we are now in, and why we'll never "heal the divide"or get past the impasse until that situation is resolved.
I agree that the positions are entrenched. The difference is:
1) Number of old voters who have died since the first referendum
2) Number of young voters who are now eligible to vote
3) The key one - the number of non-voters last time who will vote this time
I think - but can't be entirely sure of course - that all three of these weigh in favour of Remain.
Despite that, and as a Remain voter, I can't see that a second Referendum would help. What could it possibly decide?
1) To Remain after all. This would be a disaster IMO. We'd be a laughing stock and suffer constant kickings for returning to the fold with our tail between our legs
2) No deal Brexit. This would also be a disaster IMO. Even worse in fact. It's too far away from the 52:48 balance and is too heavily in favour of ideology and against practicality
3) Something in between. It would be impossible to reach a nuanced in-between position via referendum. This is what we need, but it's our Parliament that needs to be delivering it.
We the people have expressed ourselves in a couple of ways:
1) We voted 52:48 on a 72% turnout. The deal we do needs to reflect this split.
2) We didn't give a single party a majority in the last election. Therefore they needed to work together to get this deal through.
The problem is that when you consider the personalities involved at the top of the two main parties, and even within the two main parties, working together was never really an option. This is how we have ended up in the mucking fuddle we are now in, and why we'll never "heal the divide"or get past the impasse until that situation is resolved.
Ellipsis; //1) Number of old voters who have died since the first referendum
2) Number of young voters who are now eligible to vote//
It is an unfortunate fact of life that not only old people die.
Also, not all young people vote, many of them are too stoned to know what's going on, let alone find their way to the voting station.
2) Number of young voters who are now eligible to vote//
It is an unfortunate fact of life that not only old people die.
Also, not all young people vote, many of them are too stoned to know what's going on, let alone find their way to the voting station.
I didn't assume anything. I wrote "I think - but can't be entirely sure of course - that all three of these weigh in favour of Remain."
If you consider individual cases, of course some young people tragically die, and some old people live. And some young voters are for Leave, and some old voters are for Remain. Given that I was talking at the overall level, though, I was restricted to generalities.
If you consider individual cases, of course some young people tragically die, and some old people live. And some young voters are for Leave, and some old voters are for Remain. Given that I was talking at the overall level, though, I was restricted to generalities.
I would imagine that poor chap from the Windrush generation who was suffering from cancer and was denied treatment had a much rougher time due to her hostile environment policies.This all happened under her watch as Home Sec and then she passed the buck to Amber Rudd and let her take the flack for it.
I have no sympathy with her whatsoever.
I have no sympathy with her whatsoever.
emmie... You say that no one wants the deal..
She has negotiated the best deal that she can. EU was not going to give us an easy exit, it was always going to be a rough time getting the best deal she could get for us and I think she has done it.
If we got a new PM, they are not going to be able to get us anything else so there is no point bleating about it. We need to learn to work with the deal that she has managed to get and go from there.
She has negotiated the best deal that she can. EU was not going to give us an easy exit, it was always going to be a rough time getting the best deal she could get for us and I think she has done it.
If we got a new PM, they are not going to be able to get us anything else so there is no point bleating about it. We need to learn to work with the deal that she has managed to get and go from there.
Naomi24.. I think that if thats what the Leavers envisaged for leaving the EU then they needed to wake up as that was never going to happen. We need to have trade deals, we need to know about border controls.. We have been tied in to the EU for too long to just sever all ties that fast. It doesnt work like that.
If we leave with no deal.. which is what the Leavers want.. this country will be very alone and plunged into a recession very fast as companies close down, the cost of living rises well beyond wages and we cant get a decent trade deal with anyone.
If we leave with no deal.. which is what the Leavers want.. this country will be very alone and plunged into a recession very fast as companies close down, the cost of living rises well beyond wages and we cant get a decent trade deal with anyone.
//You can insist as much as you like that they wanted to leave with no deal. There is precious little evidence that this is the default position of Leave voters.//
Sajid Javid will argue tomorrow that the government should consider a no-deal Brexit to be the most likely outcome and urge cabinet colleagues to begin preparations on that basis.
The home secretary wants a significant increase in planning and spending because there is no sign of a resolution to the deadlock in government or the Commons. He fears the prospect of Britain automatically leaving the EU without even minimal preparations on March 29 next year.
Times
Sajid Javid will argue tomorrow that the government should consider a no-deal Brexit to be the most likely outcome and urge cabinet colleagues to begin preparations on that basis.
The home secretary wants a significant increase in planning and spending because there is no sign of a resolution to the deadlock in government or the Commons. He fears the prospect of Britain automatically leaving the EU without even minimal preparations on March 29 next year.
Times
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