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Is "focusing On The Genitals Transphobic"?
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I strongly suspect the IOC signed-off on Dr McKinnon for fear of being labelled an 'obe' or whatever is fashionable this week.
All you need in Dr Mckinnon's case to know 'she' has gained an unfair advantage, is a set of eyes and a modicum of common sense.
As we now have this absurd situation that men can compete against women, to the detriment of women athletes, what we need is:
1. Men compete against men.
2. Women compete against women.
3. Men who are transitioning to women compete against men or other men who are transitioning to be women.
Point 3 is there because it is fundamentally unfair that men (to all intents and purposes) are allowed to compete against women.
Quite simply there is not an argument in the world that can justify a man, transitioning to be a woman, being allowed to compete against women.
Taking my Mako Vunipola point to the extreme, no amount of oestrogen (sp) will make him a woman. He may grow a pair of tits, but his body composition will always be that of man, and a bloody big man at that.
All you need in Dr Mckinnon's case to know 'she' has gained an unfair advantage, is a set of eyes and a modicum of common sense.
As we now have this absurd situation that men can compete against women, to the detriment of women athletes, what we need is:
1. Men compete against men.
2. Women compete against women.
3. Men who are transitioning to women compete against men or other men who are transitioning to be women.
Point 3 is there because it is fundamentally unfair that men (to all intents and purposes) are allowed to compete against women.
Quite simply there is not an argument in the world that can justify a man, transitioning to be a woman, being allowed to compete against women.
Taking my Mako Vunipola point to the extreme, no amount of oestrogen (sp) will make him a woman. He may grow a pair of tits, but his body composition will always be that of man, and a bloody big man at that.
Deskdiary
I suspect that the IOC and other sporting authorities need to establish a set of rules and protocols which define what they regard as a man, a woman and how that can be fairly applied.
What is needed right now, is quiet and intelligence analysis. What constitutes an unfair advantage? Is it muscle growth, potential for muscle growth, testosterone levels, and how they should be interpreted - with regards to M/F and F/M transitioning.
It would be reductive to define all cases based on this one outlier.
I suspect that the IOC and other sporting authorities need to establish a set of rules and protocols which define what they regard as a man, a woman and how that can be fairly applied.
What is needed right now, is quiet and intelligence analysis. What constitutes an unfair advantage? Is it muscle growth, potential for muscle growth, testosterone levels, and how they should be interpreted - with regards to M/F and F/M transitioning.
It would be reductive to define all cases based on this one outlier.
I think I know what the issue is here. There seems to be a worry that this case will open the floodgates to men challenging women in women’s events. That there are horde of men willing to claim that they are women in order to win at events, by effectively cheating.
Is that the core of the issue?
If so, then I think it’s a worry we can put to bed. Surely the numbers in this demographic are tiny and as long as the IOC state that self-regulation cannot be accepted, then perhaps are worries are unfounded.
Is that the core of the issue?
If so, then I think it’s a worry we can put to bed. Surely the numbers in this demographic are tiny and as long as the IOC state that self-regulation cannot be accepted, then perhaps are worries are unfounded.
"The word ‘lobby’ is an all-encompassing word which covers ‘people who don’t agree with me’."
No it isn't. There is a recognised dictionary definition of the noun "lobby" and the associated verb. The noun:
"A group of persons who work or conduct a campaign to influence members of a legislature to vote according to the group's special interest."
The "trans" lobby is a perfect example. They "lobbied" Parliament to legislate for self-identification. Parliament acquiesced and the result includes ridiculous consequences such as the one highlighted on this thread (but there are many others).The problem with narrow-interest lobby groups is that they are so focussed on their cause that they fail to recognise the wider consequences that will ensue should their demands be met. A few years back you could rely on Parliament to do that and refuse to bow to their demands. Now you can't because Parliament is too terrified to upset a minority for fear of being seen as "nasty". Unfortunately in doing that they upset the majority who don't shout quite so loudly.
A lobby has nothing to do with people who don't agree with me (or anybody else).
No it isn't. There is a recognised dictionary definition of the noun "lobby" and the associated verb. The noun:
"A group of persons who work or conduct a campaign to influence members of a legislature to vote according to the group's special interest."
The "trans" lobby is a perfect example. They "lobbied" Parliament to legislate for self-identification. Parliament acquiesced and the result includes ridiculous consequences such as the one highlighted on this thread (but there are many others).The problem with narrow-interest lobby groups is that they are so focussed on their cause that they fail to recognise the wider consequences that will ensue should their demands be met. A few years back you could rely on Parliament to do that and refuse to bow to their demands. Now you can't because Parliament is too terrified to upset a minority for fear of being seen as "nasty". Unfortunately in doing that they upset the majority who don't shout quite so loudly.
A lobby has nothing to do with people who don't agree with me (or anybody else).
"..as long as the IOC state that self-regulation cannot be accepted,"
It's not just the IOC. There are countless sporting organisations at lower level that will be troubled by this. Furthermore, since "self identification" is now enshrined in UK Equality legislation it will be extremely difficult for those organisations to defend their corner when conflicts arise. It is a classic example of "unintended consequences" which anybody with any sense should have foreseen and prevented.
It's not just the IOC. There are countless sporting organisations at lower level that will be troubled by this. Furthermore, since "self identification" is now enshrined in UK Equality legislation it will be extremely difficult for those organisations to defend their corner when conflicts arise. It is a classic example of "unintended consequences" which anybody with any sense should have foreseen and prevented.
NJ
There is no trans lobby. All there is, are young people who have a different outlook and have decided that they want the world to be defined by them.
Can’t say fairer than that. Every generation has the right to rip up rule books and decide what they think of the world and what the parameters of their acceptance is.
The lobby you speak of may simply be young people who disagree with you.
Maybe not - but it’s possible.
There is no trans lobby. All there is, are young people who have a different outlook and have decided that they want the world to be defined by them.
Can’t say fairer than that. Every generation has the right to rip up rule books and decide what they think of the world and what the parameters of their acceptance is.
The lobby you speak of may simply be young people who disagree with you.
Maybe not - but it’s possible.
There is no universal rulebook governing transgender participation in sports; instead, various governing bodies have crafted rules for these athletes. Perhaps it’s no surprise that many of these rules focus on the participation of transgender females (individuals who were born male and then transitioned to female), because male athletes, on average, have physical advantages in terms of strength and stamina over female athletes.
The various rules often focus on testosterone and whether an athlete must suppress or boost the male hormone in order to compete.
There is no testosterone standard across all sports. Under the NCAA’s rules, a trans female (male to female) can compete in women’s sports after completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment, while a trans male (female to male) can no longer compete in female sports after starting testosterone replacement therapy.
The various rules often focus on testosterone and whether an athlete must suppress or boost the male hormone in order to compete.
There is no testosterone standard across all sports. Under the NCAA’s rules, a trans female (male to female) can compete in women’s sports after completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment, while a trans male (female to male) can no longer compete in female sports after starting testosterone replacement therapy.
"There is no trans lobby."
There is and I've pointed out to you its existence, its purpose and one of its achievements.
" The UK Equality Act has no bearing on the rules of the IOC."
You have it the wrong way round. The rules of the IOC have no bearing on the UK Equalities Act. Sporting bodies will find it extremely difficult to introduce rules which run contrary to national legislation. For example, the IOC (or the FIA, or the Barnsley Pigeon Fanciers' Association) could decide they will no longer allow black people to participate in their events. Do you think their rules will simply override national legislation?
There is and I've pointed out to you its existence, its purpose and one of its achievements.
" The UK Equality Act has no bearing on the rules of the IOC."
You have it the wrong way round. The rules of the IOC have no bearing on the UK Equalities Act. Sporting bodies will find it extremely difficult to introduce rules which run contrary to national legislation. For example, the IOC (or the FIA, or the Barnsley Pigeon Fanciers' Association) could decide they will no longer allow black people to participate in their events. Do you think their rules will simply override national legislation?
And none of the measures you cite will prevent occurrences such as that involving Dr McKinnon. Quite simply, "she" is a bloke competing in a women's competition and one where physical strength is an important attribute. It is unfair, it is laughable and will lead to the devaluation of women's events in many sports.
I don't particularly care what people do about their "gender identity" so long as it does not affect me. But I do have an affection for some sports and I see this nonsense having the potential to ruin some of them to a greater or lesser degree.
I don't particularly care what people do about their "gender identity" so long as it does not affect me. But I do have an affection for some sports and I see this nonsense having the potential to ruin some of them to a greater or lesser degree.
The UK Equalities Act could not possibly have an impact on the rulings of international sporting bodies.
How could it?
I think we should be careful not to blow this out of all proportion.
There is a danger that people will use this story to justify their positions on transgendered people in general.
I certainly think that this case needs to open a discussion on how gender is defined. Not by random people in a website, but by scientists - perhaps using ‘mumbo jumbo’.
How could it?
I think we should be careful not to blow this out of all proportion.
There is a danger that people will use this story to justify their positions on transgendered people in general.
I certainly think that this case needs to open a discussion on how gender is defined. Not by random people in a website, but by scientists - perhaps using ‘mumbo jumbo’.
NJ
You wrote:
And none of the measures you cite will prevent occurrences such as that involving Dr McKinnon.
They have a chance to prevent this, but they have to be given a chance to b debated.
It’s no use simply saying, “She’s a bloke”. Someone needs to to define what this means for those who are transitioning.
It needs to be agreed rationally and sensibly.
Saying that the science behind gender identification and how it impacts on sporting ability is ‘mumbo jumbo’ cannot be the basis for ongoing analysis and discussion.
You wrote:
And none of the measures you cite will prevent occurrences such as that involving Dr McKinnon.
They have a chance to prevent this, but they have to be given a chance to b debated.
It’s no use simply saying, “She’s a bloke”. Someone needs to to define what this means for those who are transitioning.
It needs to be agreed rationally and sensibly.
Saying that the science behind gender identification and how it impacts on sporting ability is ‘mumbo jumbo’ cannot be the basis for ongoing analysis and discussion.
Mermaids is passionate about supporting children, young people, and their families to achieve a happier life in the face of great adversity. We work to raise awareness about gender nonconformity in children and young people amongst professionals and the general public. We campaign for the recognition of gender dysphoria in young people and lobby for improvements in professional services.
Talking of the damage it could do (if men were able to compete in the same events as women); it reminds me how some groups went into a panic when the Marriage Equality Law was enacted and...nothing really happened.
It was the original Project Fear.
I think that most people will be thinking that there are very few people with sufficient athletic ability who would want to pibcliclu start the transitioning process in order to win at a given sport, to give this the time of day.
It could be an issue, but I doubt it.
I suspect that this is something that people will latch on to, so they can express their feelings about trans people. I think these opinions should be heard - but the need to be heard in the context of a thoughtful and considered debate - not simply as a way to hurl brickbats.
That’s reductive.
It was the original Project Fear.
I think that most people will be thinking that there are very few people with sufficient athletic ability who would want to pibcliclu start the transitioning process in order to win at a given sport, to give this the time of day.
It could be an issue, but I doubt it.
I suspect that this is something that people will latch on to, so they can express their feelings about trans people. I think these opinions should be heard - but the need to be heard in the context of a thoughtful and considered debate - not simply as a way to hurl brickbats.
That’s reductive.
The term ‘trans lobby’ is used by the media, but in real life, it’s just ordinary, (generally, but not exclusively) younger people expressing their opinions.
I think it’s sensible not to fall into ‘newspaper speak’.
Anyhow - it’s now Christmas Eve and I still have one gift to wrap, so I’ll lwt you have the last word.
I think it’s sensible not to fall into ‘newspaper speak’.
Anyhow - it’s now Christmas Eve and I still have one gift to wrap, so I’ll lwt you have the last word.
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