May & Her Brexit

[Khandro]

It is alleged that she not only doesn't want it, she is and has been actively working to prevent it. Would you not agree?

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/opinion-theresa-may-rigged-her-cabinet-against-brexit/

[Zacs-Master]

Tora, it was a direct reply to Khandro. Nothing else. It’s really pretty obvious. Even the lads down The Nags Head would see that.

[ToraToraTora]

khandro said: "but now people are beginning to say quite seriously, that she (and I believe along with Hammond) has been since day 1 trying to thwart Britain's departure. " - that further underlines my point.

[pixie374]

Of course. I'm sure everyone has seen that right from the start. She wants to "minimise" the exit.

[New Judge]

Yes, even her own advisors have admitted that she sees Brexit as a damage limitation exercise rather than an opportunity for the UK to set off in a different, more promising direction.

[jim360]

// The EU will ensure that the backstop is never "no longer necessary". You can count on it. It retains their control and they thrive on it. //

The Backstop also undermines the integrity of the Single Market, and indeed it was a British proposal (and a European Concession) to introduce it.

[pixie374]

Out of interest, Jim.... //There's no such thing as a "Remainer Brexit" -- it's a contradiction in terms//

It seems you are now suggesting we either leave or remain? And there is no in between. The other day, you were saying (paraphrasing) that there are no absolutes and compromise is possible.
Which is it?

[jim360]

// A Remainer Brexit... is where we remain but remainers can pretend otherwise since the nation's name has been removed from the membership list. //

We don't remain unless we have a say in the future direction of the EU, which is to say remaining officially members of the EU. The Withdrawal Agreement ensures that this will not be the case. It therefore isn't a "Remainer Brexit". Nor is it anything close to what Remainers wanted -- even if it does reflect what they feared.

[New Judge]

How does it undermine the integrity of the Single Market?

It reinforces its provisions in a geographical area where they should not apply.

[Zacs-Master]

Can I just state, categorically, that whatever impression my answer to Khandro may have given, it was designed to convey my feelings that Brexit was never going to be easy with a pro EU Govt. It was, categorically, not designed to convey that I think TM is actively plotting to subvert politicians or the Govt at large. She’s no need to. The MPs who continually fail to vote for any of her proposals are doing that. Unless you believe she is commanding them to vote that way. If you are, then I suggest you go have your bumps felt.

I trust that’s unequivocal.

[jim360]

I'm not sure that's a fair reading of what I'm saying. A compromise, whatever that entails, isn't the same thing as a "remainer Brexit", which when it's been used in this thread seems to clearly indicate some underhand "plot". A compromise between the two sides, if properly achieved, would at least be more honest than that.

[pixie374]

Well, a compromise isn't "honest" in any way at all. But otherwise, thanks for the clarification x

[jim360]

As to NJ's question: the Backstop puts Northern Ireland in the position of being free to trade both with the EU and with the UK even as their customs arrangements start to diverge. This *does* reduce the advantage of being inside the Single Market, because at least one country, or region, then exists that is both inside and outside the SM at the same time. It's not a situation that the EU would want to continue indefinitely.

[New Judge]

"The MPs who continually fail to vote for any of her proposals are doing that."

She has only promoted one proposal. The others (all of which have failed to attract a majority) have been put forward by others.

[jim360]

Well, perhaps not, pixie. But at the very least let's allow that Remain voters also dislike the WA on its own (lack of) merits too. Doesn't give them what they want any more than it gives Leavers what they might have wanted. Whether some other deal exists that satisfies we'll have to wait and see, but perhaps it requires Brexiteers to accept that leaving the EU is a process rather than a single event.

[pixie374]

I think we all knew they would make a meal of it, mostly because they don't want it to happen at all. Let's hope a little integrity exists somewhere...

[ToraToraTora]

TJM: "The MPs who continually fail to vote for any of her proposals are doing that. Unless you believe she is commanding them to vote that way. If you are, then I suggest you go have your bumps felt." - not commanding but presenting such unpalatable tish that even MPs' integrity is not low enough to let it pass. The PM is quite cleverly engineering her way to No Brexit or at the very least Brino. Even I prefer to stay than her non "deal".

[vetuste_ennemi]

I wish the "withdrawal agreement" (all 600 pages of it) were described as what it is: a legally binding treaty, and one which we cannot terminate unilaterally.

Meanwhile let's think of an alternative name and use for twenty-eight page postscript pretentiously named "the political decalaration" which purports to set the parameters of our future relationship with the EU.

And a postscript of my own: on Sky the recently ennobled Baroness Chakrabati has described the May/Corbett discussions as "respectful", "friendly" and "unproductive". Soemthing to do with "intransigence" I think.

[New Judge]

To clear the air a little I will ask again, how much of a compromise would have been considered had the result been 52:48 to remain. I can give you my guess: absolutely none whatsoever. We would have simply continued as full members with no changes at all. Quite why any consideration is given to the remain contingent is quite beyond my understanding. We're either in or we're out and anything that ties us to the EU, its legislation or its institutions is not "out".

It's convenient for Remainers to have this facility available (i.e. to "Leave" whilst not actually leaving). It's a luxury not afforded to Leavers.

[vetuste_ennemi]

// Let's hope a little integrity exists somewhere...//

You'll need a magnifying glass, Pixie.

[jim360]

And I will answer again: we already had a "compromised" form of Remaining, wherein we stayed out of Schengen and Euro, immediately got back about 1/3 of our contributions from the rebate, etc etc.