Several Officers Injured By Suspect Firing In Shooting In Philadelphia;

[anotheoldgit]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/suspect-firing-officers-ongoing-shooting-incident-philadelphia-police/story?id=64977503

[naomi24]

Shotguns - clays.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - are you now willing to concede that a gun was designed as a weapon, and that remains its primary purpose, and not, as you stated, to shoot at targets?

[naomi24]

^Wheeeee! And around he spins again – this time with a cheeky little ‘now’ added to the mix. That guns ‘were’ designed as weapons has never been mentioned – or indeed disputed - but that’s a far cry from ‘the purpose of guns is to kill people’.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - // That guns ‘were’ designed as weapons has never been mentioned – or indeed disputed - but that’s a far cry from ‘the purpose of guns is to kill people’. //

I don't believe that it is.

As I said previously, I am talking about the concept of the gun as an entity, not the various uses to which it can be put.

My point is that the gun is a weapon, it was designed and used as a weapon, and that remains its primary function.

I cannot reconcile your statement that guns are made to shoot at targets - clearly some guns are, but that is still not the primary purpose of a gun.

[vulcan42]

If we go back through history to the 9th century, the Chinese invented the fire lance which is accepted as the predecessor of all firearms. Its primary purpose was to frighten the enemy, not kill them.

[andy-hughes]

vulcan - That may be so, but I am sure you will concede my point, that the evolution of that fire lance into the gun was driven by the need to provide a more sophisticated weapon to kill people with.

That is the only point I raised.

[naomi24]

AH, //I cannot reconcile your statement that guns are made to shoot at targets//

That doesn’t surprise me. You haven’t considered the meaning of the word ‘target’. Anything ‘aimed’ at, whether it be a tin can with a pea-shooter, the black ball with a snooker cue, or indeed, a clay pigeon – or a person - with a gun, is a target.

[andy-hughes]

naomi - // AH, //I cannot reconcile your statement that guns are made to shoot at targets//

That doesn’t surprise me. You haven’t considered the meaning of the word ‘target’. Anything ‘aimed’ at, whether it be a tin can with a pea-shooter, the black ball with a snooker cue, or indeed, a clay pigeon – or a person - with a gun, is a target. //

I understand your point, but note that you still fight shy of my premise that the purpose of the gun, as an entity, is to kill people, be they classed as a 'target' is not really the point I made.

[THECORBYLOON]

Could technology not be used to remove the need for physical bullets when shooting at a target?

Technology could be used to determine where a virtual bullet would hit, could it not?

A "smart" target could determine where the firearm was being aimed and display something similar to a hit after the trigger had been pulled.

[retrocop]

Such as you describe already exists for clay shooting. A type of laser attached to a conventional shotgun and the unbreakable clays have a small chip on them . If you score a bird you hear a satisfying noise and a TV monitor shows your score as ten pin bowling. Used regularly at county shows. Ok for smooth barrelled shotguns at a shorter range but no good for my discipline which ranges up to 1200yds

[andy-hughes]

The Corbyloon - // Could technology not be used to remove the need for physical bullets when shooting at a target? //

Without a doubt, for anyone who likes shooting at 'targets' would tell you - where's the fun in that?

[THECORBYLOON]

RETRO, if your firearm were modified so that a device knew where the firearm was aimed, would that not work?

[retrocop]

TCL
Any one who practices rifle shooting and knows what they are talking about will tell you that a lot of ballistic conditions apply to consistency and accuracy for a target shooter. Apart from windage,elevation,barometric pressure, Minutes of Angle and Mil-Radians plus weight and shape of projectile you will learn that to maintain consistent accuracy.
In a competition, having zeroed your sight into 1200yds range you will get two sighting shots and ten to count.If your first shot to count hits a 'V Bull' ,the diameter of a small coffee cup, you will hope to put the remaining nine in the same place. Apart from observing everchanging wind veers and making adjustments accordingly the target shooter must remain totally still atall times and try never to alter your position when lying prone. A natural phenonemom will try to make you move called recoil which is also known as a hefty kick. That makes the skill more difficult to achieve and therefore provides the compeition against fellow target shooters.
With electronic (fair ground shooting) there is no kick and therefore removes an element of skill. You don't want me to explain the requirement to have bullet ballistic considerations brought into the explanation as well. A lazer beam does not alter trajectory according to prevailing conditions. A bullet does.

[naomi24]

AH, //you still fight shy of my premise that the purpose of the gun, as an entity, is to kill people//

I’m not fighting shy of anything. I’m not sure what you mean by ‘as an entity’, but whatever that may be, the gun, although in the wrong hands is capable of killing, that is not what it is specifically designed to do and it is not its sole purpose. Whether or not it kills depends upon where it is aimed…. and that is the choice of the person who wields it – pretty much as the sharp knives I have in my kitchen drawer are, in the wrong hands, very capable of inflicting death. Guns per se don’t kill people any more than knives per se kill people. People kill people.

//anyone who likes shooting at 'targets' would tell you - where's the fun in that?//

Really? That's enlightening. How many have you asked?

[retrocop]

I do agree that the system is fine for clay shooting because of the shorter range and the ballistic considerations that are no longer needed. A good eye and ability to lead the target. The spread of shot comes out and disperses in a wider circle because a shotgun contains no rifling and is smooth bored. A target rifle has rifling and spins the bullet in the barrel as it exits creating greater accuracy. That is why in the US civil war the armies soon developed rifled barrels on their rifles instead of the old smooth musket and ball which had no ballistic characteristics and little accuracy.

[aelmpvw]

i know that frivolity is frowned upon in news but perhaps naomi and andy hughes could settle this with pistols at dawn ...

[THECORBYLOON]

Are you sure technology could not create a recoil? Could technology not calculate the effects of wind speed, air pressure etc and determine where the virtual bullet would hit?

[gulliver1]

Me thinks the reason Naomi and Retro keep guns on their premises, is so they can keep on shooting themselves in the foot .

[anotheoldgit]

What has this long going argument about the purpose of guns, got anything to do with the Philadelphia shooting.
As andy-hughes is always instructing us to keep threads on track, why is it him that is carrying on with this stupid and boring sidetrack?

[retrocop]

TCL
Are you sure technology could not create a recoil? Could technology not calculate the effects of wind speed, air pressure etc and determine where the virtual bullet would hit?

I am sure technology could calculate the conditions you are describing.
Where is the competitive element and human skills used in that scenario It no longer becomes a competitive sport if all the skill element is taken from the human and fed into a computer.
I would liken that to Lewis Hamilton having a kip in the cockpit whilst a computer decides where to steer,what gear and when it's time for a pit stop. :-)